Open Carry in TX, Unloaded

[RPB]

That reminded me.

Burnet, Texas (Seasonally)
Held on a weekly basis in conjunction with the arrival of the historic steam train, is the Old West Town, which feature a mock gunfight between the Burnet Gunfighters (weather permitting) at an authentic old west town set in the town square. Frequent shows are held on Saturdays and Sundays in the square, with old west costumes and decorations.
http://www.allbestarticles.com/finance/ ... texas.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm guessing the mock gunfights are "fictional-historical re-enactments" but "fictional-historical" is kind of an oxymoron.

I hadn't thought about whether black powder guns were firearms by definition, but holstered I can't see how an officer might know it's a toy with an orange tip or a black powder or a real gun, I'd sure hesitate and not be drawing from a holster to show an officer an orange tip or whatever though. Better think about that scenario. ...

I usually hear the gunfire from my house, and the train, but I have never grabbed my gun and headed toward the gunfire. (Like campus people fear) I just figure the train is gettin' robbed again, like it always does.
(For tourists)


Burnet Gunfighters Association
(Old Town - Jackson St.)
Burnet, TX
512-756-1872

[Kythas]

If it's a black powder gun, then it's not a firearm by Texas law and can be carried openly.

It may not be a black powder gun. My gf shoots black powder and does cowboy re-enactments, but uses a Ruger Vaquero .38 revolver. This is a real gun but she simply uses black powder cartridges instead of smokeless powder. Before dating her I didn't even know those exist. This could be what the person in the OP is referring to when saying he shoots black powder blanks.

[Weg]

Black powder cap and ball revolvers are not regulated under the GCA of 1968, and therefore area not considered as " handguns" in many states, that is why you can mail order them without going through a FFL. Not sure what their status is in Texas, but I know they are not regulated Federally.

[Beiruty]

If the revolver can shoot a cased bullet, then it is a handgun firearm.

[ex_dsmr]

C&B (cap and ball) revolvers arent often used for mounted shooting. I worked with a gal who used to do that. They use modern firearms which utilize a black powder blank. Use of a black powder cartridge does not negate the fact that its a modern firearm capable of firing modern projectiles.

Your friend needs to find a prop gun to stay legal, even a toy for as little as he will use it.

[AustinBoy]

For the record it is a ruger vaquero montado.

Almost same scenario as Kythas mentioned.

However, thanks to Pawpaws post about the AWESOME cap guns, I think that is the route he will take.

Just not worth the risk.

Thanks for everyones input!

[srothstein]

I am glad the actual weapon under discussion was identified, but there was enough question about black powder firearms that I thought I would post the law so we could all be sure.

(3) "Firearm" means any device designed, made, or adapted to expel a projectile through a barrel by using the energy generated by an explosion or burning substance or any device readily convertible to that use. Firearm does not include a firearm that may have, as an integral part, a folding knife blade or other characteristics of weapons made illegal by this chapter and that is:

(A) an antique or curio firearm manufactured before 1899; or

(B) a replica of an antique or curio firearm manufactured before 1899, but only if the replica does not use rim fire or center fire ammunition.

So, if the revolver was actually made before Jan. 1, 1899, then it is not a firearm no matter what it fires. Also, if it is a black powder replica of a firearm made before January 1, 1899 it is not a firearm if it does not use cartridges. Replicas that use cartridges are firearms, no matter how old the original gun. Black powder guns that are not replicas (like the Knight in-line muzzle loading rifles) are also firearms if they were made after Jan. 1, 1899..

[Skiprr]

parade is not a historic enactment. I guess, let your friend buy a soft version or prop gun like in the movies and carry that in the parade. It is not worth it to get arrested for carrying a live handgun in the parade.

But wait a sec, can't you friend claim that he is traveling while riding on the horseback? It is an exception. But, testing in court good be costly. proceed with cautious.

Ummmmm - the gun has to be concealed while traveling. Buy a prop gun.

Noooooo... actually the traveling exception is silent on whether the gun must be concealed. So if you are traveling, you may carry openly.

TXPC 46.15
...
(b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:
(1) is in the actual discharge of official duties as a member of the
armed forces or state military forces as defined by Section 431.001,
Government Code, or as a guard employed by a penal institution;
(2) is traveling;
(3) is engaging in lawful hunting, fishing, or other sporting activity
on the immediate premises where the activity is conducted, or is en
route between the premises and the actor's residence or motor
vehicle, if the weapon is a type commonly used in the activity;

I have a different opinion:

“A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun in a motor vehicle that is owned by the person or under the person's control at any time in which:
(1) the handgun is in plain view; or...

IMHO, the §46.15(b)(2) item is a failure to “normalize” (meaning to bring all statutes into a cohesive whole) the law following the changes of the 2009 Legislature.

My bet, though IANAL, is that a DA will see PC §46.02 as dominant should a case arise with someone who is carrying a handgun openly in his or her car.

Your mileage may vary, and you are free to test my theory.

[flb_78]

I am glad the actual weapon under discussion was identified, but there was enough question about black powder firearms that I thought I would post the law so we could all be sure.

(3) "Firearm" means any device designed, made, or adapted to expel a projectile through a barrel by using the energy generated by an explosion or burning substance or any device readily convertible to that use. Firearm does not include a firearm that may have, as an integral part, a folding knife blade or other characteristics of weapons made illegal by this chapter and that is:

(A) an antique or curio firearm manufactured before 1899; or

(B) a replica of an antique or curio firearm manufactured before 1899, but only if the replica does not use rim fire or center fire ammunition.

So, if the revolver was actually made before Jan. 1, 1899, then it is not a firearm no matter what it fires. Also, if it is a black powder replica of a firearm made before January 1, 1899 it is not a firearm if it does not use cartridges. Replicas that use cartridges are firearms, no matter how old the original gun. Black powder guns that are not replicas (like the Knight in-line muzzle loading rifles) are also firearms if they were made after Jan. 1, 1899..

Federal law does not call a modern black powder rifle a firearm.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/collectors.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As defined in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(16) the term “antique firearm” means —

…
A. any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or

B.any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica —
is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or

C. any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term ‘antique firearm’ shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon, which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.

[apostate]

Consider the now discontinued Ruger Old Army. As a black powder cap-and-ball revolver, it didn't fall under the Federal definition and was sold through the mail. However, because it's not a replica of a 19th Century revolver, it appears to fall under the Texas definition of a firearm and, for the purpose of UCW, would be no different than carrying a Taurus Judge.

[flb_78]

I guess the question is, Does Texas law trump Federal law or does Federal trump State when it comes to black powder guns.

[flb_78]

I personally know of a gentleman who bought a modern cap and ball revolver and it was shipped directly to his house with no FFL involved. It was not a replica of any antique firearm. This was while I lived in Texas still.

http://www.naaminis.com/naac&b.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Now if they would only build one in a 36 caliber snub nose!!

[apostate]

I guess the question is, Does Texas law trump Federal law or does Federal trump State when it comes to black powder guns.

I suggest the answer in this case is neither. I believe the definition in 46.01 applies to offenses in section 46 (and perhaps other sections of the Texas Penal Code) while the definition in 18 U.S.C. § 921 applies to the "Unlawful Acts" in 18 U.S.C. § 922 and perhaps other Federal laws. However, IANAL.