CHLer arrested in improperly posted hospital

[seamusTX]

...so, if it carries to other things...a citizen brought into an ER unconscious could deny that he put the gun in his pocket and walk free...even if it were his gun...

Hypothetically it could work that way.

Now if the investigators wanted to nail the guy for something serious like felon in possession, they could probably find his fingerprints and DNA on the weapon and prove that he owned it.

Unlawfully carrying a weapon is normally a misdemeanor for a non-felon, and they probably wouldn't waste time on it.

However, if you claim that a weapon or other contraband is not yours, of course it will go to the property room and you will never see it again.

This kind of thing often happens when illegal drugs are found in a vehicle but not on anyone's person.

- Jim

[sugar land dave]

Many people going through the emergency room doors aren't thinking in the clearest most coherent manor.

Not sure how I should feel about that. Thinking impaired by pain, illness, or medication and then carrying.

If I had been carrying when I got in my bike accident years ago, my two choices would have been "thinking impaired by pain, illness, or medication and then carrying", or leave it by the side of the road for some random person to find in the morning. I'm not advocating getting all drugged up so you can barely walk then strapping on Rambo's arsenal, but if I'm CCing out & about and the excrement hits the ventilator, I'd like the option of not having to leave my gun hidden in the bushes down by the river before I get taken to the ER.

Speaking of which, what happens if, say, you're in a car wreck and you're unconscious and the paramedics don't notice your gun and they take you to a hospital that is properly posted? Sheriff's/DA's discretion?

I'm not addressing the legal ramifications, just the thought that the law doesn't want you to be armed and intoxicated for valid reasons. Medications or medical emergencies can put a person in an impaired state equal or greater than alcohol.

Just thinking through the lesser of the necessary evils. CC while impaired through no fault of self, reveal firearm and relinquish to an unlicensed person, remain cc but notify medical assistance, delay medical assistance to be returned to home or car to disarm?

Just thinking ahead. God forbid such a reality should occur.

[Keith B]

However, if you claim that a weapon or other contraband is not yours, of course it will go to the property room and you will never see it again.

This kind of thing often happens when illegal drugs are found in a vehicle but not on anyone's person.

- Jim

Maybe that's why all those Gang Bangers only carry Hi-Points, Phoenix Arms or Raven's so they don't loose much when they claim it wasn't theirs. And, you can bet there will be no paper trail to follow on the serial number linking it to them.

[seamusTX]

Just thinking through the lesser of the necessary evils. CC while impaired through no fault of self, reveal firearm and relinquish to an unlicensed person, remain cc but notify medical assistance, delay medical assistance to be returned to home or car to disarm?

You need to sort out your priorities.

If you have to be taken to the ER, almost by definition you are in danger of death or serious long-term consequences. If the trip to the ER involves having the cops confiscate your weapon, that issue can be sorted out later.

I don't see either the police or prosecutors making a big deal out of that set of circumstances. Granted there are some small-minded people in positions of authority even in Texas.

- Jim

[Jasonw560]

This is good news for me. As an employee, I am (somewhat) confined to a 10X12 ft. room with one point of entrance/egress, watching squiggly lines all day.

I have checked my employee handbook, code of conduct, my Policy and Procedure manual, and even my personnel file, and nowhere is this issue even mentioned.

The signs on the front door and women's center are improperly posted (by either 30.06 or 51%standards).

And I don't believe we are considered a teaching hopsital. I'm checking into that.

[seamusTX]

There's a good news-bad news aspect here.

Because many people erroneously think it is illegal to carry in hospitals (and other places such as churches), they don't post proper signs that would make it illegal.

The bad news is that some of the people who think it is illegal are LEOs, and they will arrest you if you get caught.

And for crying out loud don't inform management that nyah-nyah they have the wrong sign.

- Jim

[fannypacker]

We need to follow this closely. If she is convicted we all need to contribute to her appeal. Everyone help watch this case. I am an NRA life member and I care about this lady.

[Skaven]

I work in a hospital in Jefferson County...there's the handgun-with-the-red-slash sign on the door, but I've not seen the wording that the instructor (in the newscast) said is required...what I have seen, just yesterday, is a police officer with handgun on his belt, in the hospital cafeteria. If the Bedford PD spokesman is right, that shouldn't be happening...if he's wrong, she didn't commit a crime. She might have violated hospital policy, but that's not quite the same thing! I do hope she wins, and Bedford law enforcement and her employer get their acts together!

Official LEO can carry in places other people can't especially if they are in uniform.

[seamusTX]

The lady whose arrest was at the beginning of this thread had charges dropped years ago.

Peace officers and a few other other officials (mainly judges) are exempt from PC 46.02, 46.03, and 46.035. They can carry a weapon almost anywhere except federal facilities and secure areas of prisons.

- Jim

[ELB]

I really don't think that of all the things one has to worry about, getting charged for having a CHL and gun in the ER when you were brought in as a patient should be very far up on the list. As SeamusTX/Jim says, priorities.

...You cannot be prosecuted for something that happens while you are unconscious. Criminal guilt requires a competent mental state (mens rea is the legal term).
- Jim

You're not going to find it written down in black and white in one place. ...
- Jim

For this particular instance (seriously ill patient+gun+chl+posted ER), this is is pretty close to "black and white:"

Sec. 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER.
...(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's person:
...(4) on the premises of a hospital licensed under Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, ... unless the license holder has written authorization of the hospital ...;
...(i) Subsections (b)(4), ... do not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.

If you are so bad off that you are carted in by ambulance from a car wreck or heart attack or something serious, especially if unconscious, "intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly" are not going to apply. Even if you are actually in pretty good shape, but the paramedics insisted on the c-collar and backboard routine after a car accident, I don't see any of those three words being seriously applicable. Never say never, there is the occasional Nifong, but really, not something to worry about.

If you walk-in to get a fish-hook out of your finger or something and you have the mental faculties to fill out the admission form, that might be something else...

[Ameer]

I agree that someone on PCP shouldn't be allowed to carry a handgun in a hospital, but there are already laws that cover that, and also make it illegal for them to carry outside the hospital.

There's no good reason the law should prohibit a doctor or nurse who works in a hospital from carrying if they have a CHL, especially if they work odd shifts and park somewhere there has been a violent crime in the past ten years.

There's no good reason a new father should be arrested because he forgot to disarm when his wife went into labor.

[seamusTX]

The law doesn't prohibit hospital employees or physicians from carrying—the hospital management does that.

Unfortunately, like most management of big corporations, they don't trust their employees.

It's ironic, as I said several pages back in this thread, that physicians and nurses handle potentially deadly medications and perform procedures that literally can and sometimes do kill a patient; but management does not trust them with a handgun.

A hospital visitor who is carrying a concealed weapon should attract no more attention that the same person would in a store or restaurant.

And I agree that hospitals are often in risky neighborhoods, and nurses have been easy targets for rapists and serial killers as long as I can remember.

- Jim

[Ameer]

The law doesn't prohibit hospital employees or physicians from carrying—the hospital management does that.

I know that's the case now but it seemed like there was a suggestion hospitals should be off limits, automatically by law like they used to be, because some patients are not thinking straight. If I misundestood the "impaired by pain, illness, or medication" comment by the person who resurrected this thread yesterday, I apologize.

[seamusTX]

I don't know what anyone else was thinking.

The law is not likely to change. It has been almost four years now since the law changed, and no CHL holder has gone berserk in a hospital. The person who is the subject of this thread probably is the only one ever to be arrested, and no one was injured in that incident.

- Jim

[speedsix]

...and, since the charges were dropped, seems that the hospital really wasn't concerned about her type...just" posting "the doors to keep the riff-raff nervous...like a lot of other places do...I'm not for retraining them...