Chambering with an uncocked striker

[olafpfj]

So I generally always think about my routine with my carry and I was pondering a thought...would my pistol go bang for sure if I pulled the trigger?

I've generally relegated this to the unanswerable question department. No one who carried will ever know if it will go bang except in the most dire of circumstances. I'm sure some forum members belong to ranges where they can arrive with their carry piece in its carry condition, draw and answer the question, but I do not. Consequently I think about my routine for readying my pistol for carry duty and keep looking for any "fly in the ointment" that might cause my pistol to not go bang. There have been mainly two concerns with my prepping routine and one begets the other. First I'm concerned about bullet setback and to mitigate that I walk the slide down when chambering. I alternate between two rounds and check every time to see if it has moved back from the cannelure. I always chamber from the magazine to avoid slamming the extractor over the rim on a full release or having to bump the slide (like an AR forward assist) to get the extractor to engage. It is the latter practice that has always caused me some concern. While I can do a press check to ensure that I am fully in battery I have never felt all that great about it. While I was thinking about the pros and cons of that practice it occurred to me that on my particular pistol that practice could result in chambering a round with a decocked striker!!!! Allow me to explain and open up to comments.

I carry a S&W M&P 45c. To clean and service this pistol you must lower a sear disconnect lever. This allows the slide to be removed without the slide hanging up on the sear. Upon reassembly you must remember to pull the sear disconnect lever back into position. If you forget, however, inserting the magazine will do it for you. If you always chamber from the magazine this will be a non issue but, if you forget to lift the disconnect and chamber by inserting a single round and dropping the slide the striker will not be cocked. Inserting the magazine after the fact will reset the sear disconnect but the striker will be forward of the sear. You will, at this point, have a chambered but uncocked useless club!!!!

Now you don't have to move the slide very far to get the sear to reset and a press check is enough to do this but still...something to think about, at least with an M&P. There is nothing to show what the condition of the striker is. So long as you always load from the magazine this isn't an issue but everyone has their own way of doing things and I just thought others with this platform might want to know about it.

[CJATE]

Is good to know. Wife has an m&p and I did mot know the mag puts the pin back. It's still new'ish to us, but I can see how one can forget the pin. I sure felt foolish trying to break it down the first time.

However I was taught (right or wrong) never drop a round in the chamber, always load from mag. Droping a round in is hard on extractors.

[Sunny45]

I always chambered a round from the mag regardless of which semiauto I used. Thanks for the info.

[MoJo]

If you do a complete function check after cleaning the chance of this happening is nil. Loading a single round in the chamber of a semi auto pistol is a bad habit that can lead to broken extractors. Almost all semi auto pistols use a controlled feed loading system meaning the rounds need to be stripped from the magazine to prevent damaging the extractor.

[olafpfj]

If you do a complete function check after cleaning the chance of this happening is nil. Loading a single round in the chamber of a semi auto pistol is a bad habit that can lead to broken extractors. Almost all semi auto pistols use a controlled feed loading system meaning the rounds need to be stripped from the magazine to prevent damaging the extractor.

and I do function check and load form the magazine...

However, I watched my CHL instructor place one in the pipe and let the slide slam home. So while I don't do it I have at least seen one supposedly knowledgeable gentleman do it. While it would be rare to do...it is possible and I'm certainly happy that I'm aware of it and make sure my routine prevents it. Not everyone is as thorough and consistent and sometimes even a seasoned vet skips a step.

[The Annoyed Man]

Well as you know, I also sometimes carry a M&P 45, and I always chamber from the magazine, with the thumb-safety engaged. In fact, it is my practice to do all handling of the M&P with the safety engaged. Since the M&P slide can be racked with the safety engaged, it works out real well.

[BrianSW99]

I would never load a round directly into the chamber, but I also don't use the sear disconnect lever. I'm used to just pulling the trigger on my Glocks (after thoroughly checking to make sure it's empty) to remove the slide and that's what I've been doing on my M&P.

Brian

[G.A. Heath]

If you do a complete function check after cleaning the chance of this happening is nil. Loading a single round in the chamber of a semi auto pistol is a bad habit that can lead to broken extractors. Almost all semi auto pistols use a controlled feed loading system meaning the rounds need to be stripped from the magazine to prevent damaging the extractor.

and I do function check and load form the magazine...

However, I watched my CHL instructor place one in the pipe and let the slide slam home. So while I don't do it I have at least seen one supposedly knowledgeable gentleman do it. While it would be rare to do...it is possible and I'm certainly happy that I'm aware of it and make sure my routine prevents it. Not everyone is as thorough and consistent and sometimes even a seasoned vet skips a step.

I perform function checks (Usually with snap caps) and always load from the magazine. Loading a single round by jumping the extractor over it is not only a possible cause of failure, it is also a lazy/bad habit that can lead to others that a gun fight can get you killed. Lazy habits and bad habits cause faults and failures, and in a gun fight you want all the faults and failures to be the other guy's.

[speedsix]

...it can also be done because of ignorance...I've done it all my life with every pistol I've owned...never had it bite me in the butt but I learned something new today...thanks, guys!!!

[E.Marquez]

Good point.. and I've never even would have considered it had you not posted.

I have always loaded the chamber of my pistols by way of the MAG.. Never even thought of just dropping a round in the chamber, letting the slide go forward and inserting a mag.... I guess for me,, I consider loading the chambered round by way of the MAG, the last step in the function check.

[The Annoyed Man]

I would never load a round directly into the chamber, but I also don't use the sear disconnect lever. I'm used to just pulling the trigger on my Glocks (after thoroughly checking to make sure it's empty) to remove the slide and that's what I've been doing on my M&P.

Brian

That's good to know. I didn't think to check if you could even do that. My problem is that I have big fingers, and so it always requires some kind of tool to reach down in there to depress the sear disconnect. Of course, the takedown tool in the backstrap is available, but it is a pain to remove.

[flechero]

First I'm concerned about bullet setback

Back when I had to load and unload often, I would take the chambered round out each time and put it in a box of range ammo and add a fresh one on top of the mag to reload. So that way my carry ammo was only chambered once... I never had a set back failure on the range but had I repeatedly kept the same round going in and out as my carry set up, I bet it would have set back eventually.

[olafpfj]

First I'm concerned about bullet setback

Back when I had to load and unload often, I would take the chambered round out each time and put it in a box of range ammo and add a fresh one on top of the mag to reload. So that way my carry ammo was only chambered once... I never had a set back failure on the range but had I repeatedly kept the same round going in and out as my carry set up, I bet it would have set back eventually.

I've read and thought about doing that but just decided I can't afford to be that uptight about it. I use Hornady Critical Defense rounds and they have a cannelure that just barely sticks out from the case. Any setback will be readily apparent and I inspect the rounds every time. I also walk the slide down which of course baby's the round being chambered. I have practiced this at the range many many times so I'm confident that the round and slide are fully in battery. Its really no different than re-seating the round after a press check anyway.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I think being able to chamber without the striker cocked is only an issue with the M&P. I only have the one striker fired pistol so I don't know for sure about any others but since this condition can only occur through the use of the sear disconnect lever, I don't see a problem with other platforms. While it has been said you can just pull the trigger instead of using the lever, I have read many a Glock owner who hates that practice. I've also read about a few Glock owners accidentally shooting themselves when field stripping. Yes, I know...I know, if you follow proper safety procedures etc...etc.

Anyway, my post was almost purely academic. I'm one of those paste eating engineer types that loves to figure out exactly how everything works and ways they can fail. I do find it interesting that some of the hottest debates about firearms such as dropping the slide on an empty chamber, trigger bounce when doing so on a 1911 and how much does dropping the slide really bang up the extractor seem to have very little hard data. It all seems to be anecdotal evidence and the manufacturers, to my limited knowledge, seem to be silent on the issue. I wish Mythbusters or someone with access to force gauges and high speed film would finally put these to rest. There is an episode where Jamie had grown tired of all the hate mail he was getting over his practice of hitting one hammer with another. He proved academically and practically that everyone was full of it, modern hammers aren't that fragile. Now before everyone jumps all over me...I'm just curious...I am NOT recommending that any of those things be done or that they don't cause damage.

[Excaliber]

First I'm concerned about bullet setback

Back when I had to load and unload often, I would take the chambered round out each time and put it in a box of range ammo and add a fresh one on top of the mag to reload. So that way my carry ammo was only chambered once... I never had a set back failure on the range but had I repeatedly kept the same round going in and out as my carry set up, I bet it would have set back eventually.

I've read and thought about doing that but just decided I can't afford to be that uptight about it. I use Hornady Critical Defense rounds and they have a cannelure that just barely sticks out from the case. Any setback will be readily apparent and I inspect the rounds every time. I also walk the slide down which of course baby's the round being chambered. I have practiced this at the range many many times so I'm confident that the round and slide are fully in battery. Its really no different than re-seating the round after a press check anyway.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I think being able to chamber without the striker cocked is only an issue with the M&P. I only have the one striker fired pistol so I don't know for sure about any others but since this condition can only occur through the use of the sear disconnect lever, I don't see a problem with other platforms. While it has been said you can just pull the trigger instead of using the lever, I have read many a Glock owner who hates that practice. I've also read about a few Glock owners accidentally shooting themselves when field stripping. Yes, I know...I know, if you follow proper safety procedures etc...etc.

Anyway, my post was almost purely academic. I'm one of those paste eating engineer types that loves to figure out exactly how everything works and ways they can fail. I do find it interesting that some of the hottest debates about firearms such as dropping the slide on an empty chamber, trigger bounce when doing so on a 1911 and how much does dropping the slide really bang up the extractor seem to have very little hard data. It all seems to be anecdotal evidence and the manufacturers, to my limited knowledge, seem to be silent on the issue. I wish Mythbusters or someone with access to force gauges and high speed film would finally put these to rest. There is an episode where Jamie had grown tired of all the hate mail he was getting over his practice of hitting one hammer with another. He proved academically and practically that everyone was full of it, modern hammers aren't that fragile. Now before everyone jumps all over me...I'm just curious...I am NOT recommending that any of those things be done or that they don't cause damage.

As an engineer, I'm sure you know that mechanical systems are designed to be operated according to the methods that were part of the design assumptions. If you stray outside the operational design, you are at high risk of performance failure.

You'll note that the operation manual that came with your gun does not tell you to load the chamber by hand and ease the slide down over the chambered round - it tells you to let the slide snap forward on its own to feed a round from the magazine. All your supposedly knowledgeable instructor proved when he hand chambered a round in front of you was to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that his mastery of firearms is deficient in at least that area.

Letting the slide slam forward as designed causes the case rim to slide up under the extractor lip like it's designed to. This does no damage at all.

Letting the slide down on a chambered round forces the extractor to ride up and over the case rim. It'll do it, but this puts additional stress on the extractor and over time creates an increasing risk of extractor breakage. The problem with this risk is that it might not play out at the range - it could happen during your one and only gunfight. That's an "Oops" you only get to see once.

The risk of bullet setback from repeated chamberings from the magazine is minimal as long as you don't overdo it. In my experience with good quality factory defense rounds, the case rim gets chewed up to the point where I replace it (around 5 or 6 chamberings on average) long before the projectile will loosen and set back.

When I can feel more than a few nicks in the edge of the rim, or when I can see any flat, off round areas on the rim when viewed from behind, the round gets tossed into the box of carry ammo to be fired at the range to maintain familiarity with the carry ammo's point of aim and recoil characteristics. I also segregate and rotate the top two rounds which I alternate for feeding the chamber so I don't chew up all the rounds in the magazine or have to examine each one all the time.

[olafpfj]

First I'm concerned about bullet setback

Back when I had to load and unload often, I would take the chambered round out each time and put it in a box of range ammo and add a fresh one on top of the mag to reload. So that way my carry ammo was only chambered once... I never had a set back failure on the range but had I repeatedly kept the same round going in and out as my carry set up, I bet it would have set back eventually.

I've read and thought about doing that but just decided I can't afford to be that uptight about it. I use Hornady Critical Defense rounds and they have a cannelure that just barely sticks out from the case. Any setback will be readily apparent and I inspect the rounds every time. I also walk the slide down which of course baby's the round being chambered. I have practiced this at the range many many times so I'm confident that the round and slide are fully in battery. Its really no different than re-seating the round after a press check anyway.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I think being able to chamber without the striker cocked is only an issue with the M&P. I only have the one striker fired pistol so I don't know for sure about any others but since this condition can only occur through the use of the sear disconnect lever, I don't see a problem with other platforms. While it has been said you can just pull the trigger instead of using the lever, I have read many a Glock owner who hates that practice. I've also read about a few Glock owners accidentally shooting themselves when field stripping. Yes, I know...I know, if you follow proper safety procedures etc...etc.

Anyway, my post was almost purely academic. I'm one of those paste eating engineer types that loves to figure out exactly how everything works and ways they can fail. I do find it interesting that some of the hottest debates about firearms such as dropping the slide on an empty chamber, trigger bounce when doing so on a 1911 and how much does dropping the slide really bang up the extractor seem to have very little hard data. It all seems to be anecdotal evidence and the manufacturers, to my limited knowledge, seem to be silent on the issue. I wish Mythbusters or someone with access to force gauges and high speed film would finally put these to rest. There is an episode where Jamie had grown tired of all the hate mail he was getting over his practice of hitting one hammer with another. He proved academically and practically that everyone was full of it, modern hammers aren't that fragile. Now before everyone jumps all over me...I'm just curious...I am NOT recommending that any of those things be done or that they don't cause damage.

As an engineer, I'm sure you know that mechanical systems are designed to be operated according to the methods that were part of the design assumptions. If you stray outside the operational design, you are at high risk of performance failure.

You'll note that the operation manual that came with your gun does not tell you to load the chamber by hand and ease the slide down over the chambered round - it tells you to let the slide snap forward on its own to feed a round from the magazine. All your supposedly knowledgeable instructor proved when he hand chambered a round in front of you was to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that his mastery of firearms is deficient in at least that area.

Letting the slide slam forward as designed causes the case rim to slide up under the extractor lip like it's designed to. This does no damage at all.

Letting the slide down on a chambered round forces the extractor to ride up and over the case rim. It'll do it, but this puts additional stress on the extractor and over time creates an increasing risk of extractor breakage. The problem with this risk is that it might not play out at the range - it could happen during your one and only gunfight. That's an "Oops" you only get to see once.

The risk of bullet setback from repeated chamberings from the magazine is minimal as long as you don't overdo it. In my experience with good quality factory defense rounds, the case rim gets chewed up to the point where I replace it (around 5 or 6 chamberings on average) long before the projectile will loosen and set back.

When I can feel more than a few nicks in the edge of the rim, or when I can see any flat, off round areas on the rim when viewed from behind, the round gets tossed into the box of carry ammo to be fired at the range to maintain familiarity with the carry ammo's point of aim and recoil characteristics. I also segregate and rotate the top two rounds which I alternate for feeding the chamber so I don't chew up all the rounds in the magazine or have to examine each one all the time.

Just to be clear... Now before everyone jumps all over me...I'm just curious...I am NOT recommending that any of those things be done or that they don't cause damage. I also always load from the magazine. I hope no one has the impression that I was chambering a single round and either dropping the slide or walking it down and bumping over the rim. I was just thinking about all the different ways one could load a pistol and what the pros and cons are of each. While pondering this it occurred to me that if you are engaging in the wrong, but probably prevalent, practice of chambering a single round by hand you could, aside from all the other wrongness, end up with a dead pistol if using the M&P line of pistols.

I know I'm coming off as overly sensitive and defensive and thats cause I am a bit... ...

It reminds me of my favorite phrase at work...."Ah...did someone bring their feelings to work?"...