Chambering with an uncocked striker

[NEB]

I cringe every time I watch the yahoos on Mythbusters chamber a single round without use of a magazine. Of course, their lives don't depend on the reliability of the weapon.

[Excaliber]

First I'm concerned about bullet setback

Back when I had to load and unload often, I would take the chambered round out each time and put it in a box of range ammo and add a fresh one on top of the mag to reload. So that way my carry ammo was only chambered once... I never had a set back failure on the range but had I repeatedly kept the same round going in and out as my carry set up, I bet it would have set back eventually.

I've read and thought about doing that but just decided I can't afford to be that uptight about it. I use Hornady Critical Defense rounds and they have a cannelure that just barely sticks out from the case. Any setback will be readily apparent and I inspect the rounds every time. I also walk the slide down which of course baby's the round being chambered. I have practiced this at the range many many times so I'm confident that the round and slide are fully in battery. Its really no different than re-seating the round after a press check anyway.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I think being able to chamber without the striker cocked is only an issue with the M&P. I only have the one striker fired pistol so I don't know for sure about any others but since this condition can only occur through the use of the sear disconnect lever, I don't see a problem with other platforms. While it has been said you can just pull the trigger instead of using the lever, I have read many a Glock owner who hates that practice. I've also read about a few Glock owners accidentally shooting themselves when field stripping. Yes, I know...I know, if you follow proper safety procedures etc...etc.

Anyway, my post was almost purely academic. I'm one of those paste eating engineer types that loves to figure out exactly how everything works and ways they can fail. I do find it interesting that some of the hottest debates about firearms such as dropping the slide on an empty chamber, trigger bounce when doing so on a 1911 and how much does dropping the slide really bang up the extractor seem to have very little hard data. It all seems to be anecdotal evidence and the manufacturers, to my limited knowledge, seem to be silent on the issue. I wish Mythbusters or someone with access to force gauges and high speed film would finally put these to rest. There is an episode where Jamie had grown tired of all the hate mail he was getting over his practice of hitting one hammer with another. He proved academically and practically that everyone was full of it, modern hammers aren't that fragile. Now before everyone jumps all over me...I'm just curious...I am NOT recommending that any of those things be done or that they don't cause damage.

As an engineer, I'm sure you know that mechanical systems are designed to be operated according to the methods that were part of the design assumptions. If you stray outside the operational design, you are at high risk of performance failure.

You'll note that the operation manual that came with your gun does not tell you to load the chamber by hand and ease the slide down over the chambered round - it tells you to let the slide snap forward on its own to feed a round from the magazine. All your supposedly knowledgeable instructor proved when he hand chambered a round in front of you was to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that his mastery of firearms is deficient in at least that area.

Letting the slide slam forward as designed causes the case rim to slide up under the extractor lip like it's designed to. This does no damage at all.

Letting the slide down on a chambered round forces the extractor to ride up and over the case rim. It'll do it, but this puts additional stress on the extractor and over time creates an increasing risk of extractor breakage. The problem with this risk is that it might not play out at the range - it could happen during your one and only gunfight. That's an "Oops" you only get to see once.

The risk of bullet setback from repeated chamberings from the magazine is minimal as long as you don't overdo it. In my experience with good quality factory defense rounds, the case rim gets chewed up to the point where I replace it (around 5 or 6 chamberings on average) long before the projectile will loosen and set back.

When I can feel more than a few nicks in the edge of the rim, or when I can see any flat, off round areas on the rim when viewed from behind, the round gets tossed into the box of carry ammo to be fired at the range to maintain familiarity with the carry ammo's point of aim and recoil characteristics. I also segregate and rotate the top two rounds which I alternate for feeding the chamber so I don't chew up all the rounds in the magazine or have to examine each one all the time.

Just to be clear... Now before everyone jumps all over me...I'm just curious...I am NOT recommending that any of those things be done or that they don't cause damage. I also always load from the magazine. I hope no one has the impression that I was chambering a single round and either dropping the slide or walking it down and bumping over the rim. I was just thinking about all the different ways one could load a pistol and what the pros and cons are of each. While pondering this it occurred to me that if you are engaging in the wrong, but probably prevalent, practice of chambering a single round by hand you could, aside from all the other wrongness, end up with a dead pistol if using the M&P line of pistols.

I know I'm coming off as overly sensitive and defensive and thats cause I am a bit... ...

It reminds me of my favorite phrase at work...."Ah...did someone bring their feelings to work?"...

Thanks for clarifying.

"Walking" the slide down (as indicated in the OP) will not seat the cartridge in the chamber in the same way as letting the slide slam forward. This will likely cause the first round to have a slightly different point of impact than subsequent rounds.

At very close distances, this is negligible. It could become more important on longer range shots where precision is desired.

Most importantly, there's no advantage to it. The gun is designed to chamber cartridges under the full force of slide return.

[olafpfj]

Thanks for clarifying.

"Walking" the slide down (as indicated in the OP) will not seat the cartridge in the chamber in the same way as letting the slide slam forward. This will likely cause the first round to have a slightly different point of impact than subsequent rounds.

At very close distances, this is negligible. It could become more important on longer range shots where precision is desired.

Most importantly, there's no advantage to it. The gun is designed to chamber cartridges under the full force of slide return.

This brings up an interesting point for me then. Does performing a "press check" re-chamber the round off a bit and contribute to inaccuracy? Granted I have a loaded chamber indicator so I don't have to do that but many recommend it with other pistols. Of course indicators can fail but the M&P's indicator is just a small cutout at the top of the breech to allow visual confirmation of a round, negating the need for a press check.

I'm not trying to be a wise apple, by the way, I'm truly interested in the discussion...

[Excaliber]

Thanks for clarifying.

"Walking" the slide down (as indicated in the OP) will not seat the cartridge in the chamber in the same way as letting the slide slam forward. This will likely cause the first round to have a slightly different point of impact than subsequent rounds.

At very close distances, this is negligible. It could become more important on longer range shots where precision is desired.

Most importantly, there's no advantage to it. The gun is designed to chamber cartridges under the full force of slide return.

This brings up an interesting point for me then. Does performing a "press check" re-chamber the round off a bit and contribute to inaccuracy? Granted I have a loaded chamber indicator so I don't have to do that but many recommend it with other pistols. Of course indicators can fail but the M&P's indicator is just a small cutout at the top of the breech to allow visual confirmation of a round, negating the need for a press check.

I'm not trying to be a wise apple, by the way, I'm truly interested in the discussion...

Interesting point - I've never seen that asked before, and I'd have to say yes for the same reason.

In this situation the extractor never lets go of the round, so there's no concern there, but the rechambering force will not be the same as it is under full impetus from a returning slide.

[olafpfj]

This brings up an interesting point for me then. Does performing a "press check" re-chamber the round off a bit and contribute to inaccuracy?

An expert NRA Bullseye shooter might be able to tell the difference at 50 yards, but I sure can't. For all practical purposes (ie. plinking at the range or for self-defense) I wouldn't worry about it in the slightest; it's a non-issue.

As for dropping a round into the chamber and then dropping the slide - well, I'd only do that in an emergency ie. didn't have a working magazine available; the downside is that it wouldn't take long for the hook at the end of the extractor on most pistols to get chewed-up or break off doing that.

Bear in mind that most extractors are designed so that the cartridge-rim will slide up from underneath as the rear of the cartridge is released by the magazine feed-lips (at that section where the magazine feed-lips that suddenly widen or stop) and gets pushed upwards by the pressure of the magazine spring.

I edited a few pics and combined them into a little animation - I replaced the extractor with a red spot so that it's easy to see how the rear of the case slips upward into the extractor:



The case-rim slips upwards neatly in place and is held there by the extractor; the extractor isn't designed to be rammed forward and then have to bend outward and snap over the case-rim. In an emergency, fine, but I wouldn't make a habit of it.

Funny enough, the extractor is so critical to good feeding (ie. chambering a round, not just extracting it) that it's typically the first part I remove from the pistol when diagnosing chambering-issues

I agree about not making a habit of it but at the same time our pistols are not "glass like" fragile. Some pistols don't have a slide lock and by default always drop the slide on an empty chamber when the mag is empty.

The procedure I was taught for clearing a double feed is thus...

1) Lock the slide back
2) Drop the magazine
3) Turn pistol 90 degrees clockwise
4) Rack slide 3x (the first time should drop on the un-extracted case and re-engage the extractor)
5) Insert magazine
6) Tap, Rack, GO

Clearly this is an emergency operation but still, the pistol should be expected to tolerate this abuse. Should it be expected to take this all the time? I guess that depends on what the pistol was designed for. If it is expected to be a combat tested tool, then absolutely. If it is your Camp Perry special than perhaps not. I find myself looking for accepted practices that generate the same result. Either out of ignorance or emergency, both actions cause the extractor to be forced over the rim. It must be said then that to do so is not entirely out of spec with the safe operation of the pistol. It comes down to a question of frequency then. A combat reliable pistol (which we should all at least be carrying) should have no issues with this happening on accident or on purpose repeatedly. DISCLAIMER...I am not suggesting anyone tempt fate...this is purely academic!!! So one must ask what is the actual average life expectancy and out of the box failure rate of extractors? Does typical use and misuse of the system actually contribute to a higher failure rate of extractors? We read about high dollar Kimbers that choke out of the box and we read about those same Kimbers being bomb proof. Was it the use or misuse that caused these issues or actual manufacturing and assembly issues. Now having said that I've made the case for not tempting fate but I hope you all see my point. As a firearms community we have set up certain caveats and rules about how to deal with our tools but I feel that it is a disservice to simply relegate those rules to "because thats how its done". I feel one should always know the why of something. Why did this rule come into being and what were the circumstances that caused it. Of course all tools are purpose built and you should know what you have, what you intend to use it for and what it can actually do.

I guess my point about pistol wear is that you need to know your tool. A porsche 911 isn't going to handle the BAHA 1000 just like a sandrail isn't going to do well in F1.

Wait...where was I? Oh yeah...don't load single rounds by hand for many reasons. Don't do it especially with an M&P or you could, in an unlikely and rare circumstance, find yourself with a pistol that "no go bang".

[speedsix]

...thanks, AndyC, for slamming home the slide on this one!!! I've never been taught or read about not dropping the slide on a chambered round...this makes it easily understandable and I will retrain myself and my three sons...it's mag loading from now on...we all shoot Rugers but no sense in slamming the car door, even on a tank!!!

[olafpfj]

Some pistols don't have a slide lock and by default always drop the slide on an empty chamber when the mag is empty.

I was pointing out an example of a pistol designed to violate a practice we all have declared a big no no.

We're not talking about when the chamber is empty - we're referring to the damage that can occur if one repeatedly drops a round in the chamber and then trips the slide closed on it.

Neither was I. The rest of my post goes on to explain my stance that there are accepted procedures that result in camming the extractor over the rim of a a round.

Obviously the very act of shooting a pistol slowly but surely wears it out. Eventually, given enough rounds, something on your pistol will fail. The question I keep posing...does repeated camming of the extractor over the rim of a round actually cause increased wear and stress to the extractor beyond the normal abuse it gets ripping a case out of the chamber? Doesn't the extractor get torqued pretty violently when the case finally hits the ejector and gets smacked out of the grip of the extractor? Is there anywhere I can find empirical evidence that dropping the slide on a chambered round damages anything beyond the obvious buggered rim of the round?

I know of one semi-auto rifle that is designed to cam over the rim of every round it fires. The Mossberg M151 is a tube fed .22. This rifle is unusual in that the tube is in the butt of the stock and not under the barrel. When the action cycles, rounds are literally thrown into the chamber by way of a feed gate and the spring tension of the tube (its actually pretty cool to watch when testing with dummys). The bolt does not contact the round until it slams home pushing the round the rest of the way into the chamber. There is no way for the round to slide up under the extractor and it must cam over the rim on every shot. Again an example of a firearm that violates some of shootings sacred cows by design.

Anyway...we've drifted well away from the original post and I should start a thread where I call out some of shootings sacred cows and let everyone flame me....

So in summary...there is a way to chamber an M&P and not have the striker cocked...don't do it.

[dicion]

Along the same lines of the above..

Releasing the slide by pulling back is much preferred over pushing down on the slide release lever.

Why, you ask? Because pulling back on the slide lets the lever 'fall' out of the way. Pressing the lever down 'grinds' it against the slide, until it is clear.
Once or twice, or even 2 dozen times, not a problem.
Eventually though, that wear could cause issues.

Just another good tip that goes with the above discussion

[Excaliber]

Some pistols don't have a slide lock and by default always drop the slide on an empty chamber when the mag is empty.

I was pointing out an example of a pistol designed to violate a practice we all have declared a big no no.

We're not talking about when the chamber is empty - we're referring to the damage that can occur if one repeatedly drops a round in the chamber and then trips the slide closed on it.

Neither was I. The rest of my post goes on to explain my stance that there are accepted procedures that result in camming the extractor over the rim of a a round.

Obviously the very act of shooting a pistol slowly but surely wears it out. Eventually, given enough rounds, something on your pistol will fail. The question I keep posing...does repeated camming of the extractor over the rim of a round actually cause increased wear and stress to the extractor beyond the normal abuse it gets ripping a case out of the chamber? Doesn't the extractor get torqued pretty violently when the case finally hits the ejector and gets smacked out of the grip of the extractor? Is there anywhere I can find empirical evidence that dropping the slide on a chambered round damages anything beyond the obvious buggered rim of the round?

I know of one semi-auto rifle that is designed to cam over the rim of every round it fires. The Mossberg M151 is a tube fed .22. This rifle is unusual in that the tube is in the butt of the stock and not under the barrel. When the action cycles, rounds are literally thrown into the chamber by way of a feed gate and the spring tension of the tube (its actually pretty cool to watch when testing with dummys). The bolt does not contact the round until it slams home pushing the round the rest of the way into the chamber. There is no way for the round to slide up under the extractor and it must cam over the rim on every shot. Again an example of a firearm that violates some of shootings sacred cows by design.

Anyway...we've drifted well away from the original post and I should start a thread where I call out some of shootings sacred cows and let everyone flame me....

So in summary...there is a way to chamber an M&P and not have the striker cocked...don't do it.

Here's the short version of best practice, and it applies to any gun:

Read the operation manual carefully and do exactly what it says because that's the way the machine was designed to work. If you wander off that reservation, you're on your own and should not be surprised if you encounter premature parts failure and / or operational issues at unpredictable times

[olafpfj]

Obviously the very act of shooting a pistol slowly but surely wears it out. Eventually, given enough rounds, something on your pistol will fail. The question I keep posing...does repeated camming of the extractor over the rim of a round actually cause increased wear and stress to the extractor beyond the normal abuse it gets ripping a case out of the chamber? Doesn't the extractor get torqued pretty violently when the case finally hits the ejector and gets smacked out of the grip of the extractor? Is there anywhere I can find empirical evidence that dropping the slide on a chambered round damages anything beyond the obvious buggered rim of the round?

Of course a pistol wears out with use. For example, dry-firing a 1911 will eventually damage a firing-pin or the firing-pin plate (I saw a plate snap in half 2 weeks ago at the range) - but the value of that dry-firing to me in terms of practice is immensely more valuable than the $10 that the pin costs to replace. The difference is that I'm aware of the likelihood of damage occurring faster than normal and keep spares on hand; however, a lot of new gun-owners aren't aware of it and eventually the part will break (and hopefully only at the range).

As for the extractor - the actual claw itself is designed to allow the rim to be pushed sideways and out, obviously. However, the nose of the extractor isn't specifically designed to be forced forward over a case-rim - and in the case of internal extractors, such as in the traditional 1911 pattern (excluding external extractors such as the (awful) Kimber Series II design and more recent S&W and Sig 1911s) the extractor is imprisoned in a tunnel and can't really move sideways to the right - so the extractor nose takes the full brunt of the impact. That impact can damage the claw itself or weaken the extractor tension through repeated bending.

Empirical evidence - you'd perform a great service to the shooting community if you were to set something up in order to perform a more scientific analysis; I'd personally love to see how different 1911 extractors match up, specifically Wilson's "Bulletproof" extractor vs EGW's "Heavy Duty" extractor vs... so go for it.

I know of one semi-auto rifle that is designed to cam over the rim of every round it fires. The Mossberg M151 is a tube fed .22. This rifle is unusual in that the tube is in the butt of the stock and not under the barrel. When the action cycles, rounds are literally thrown into the chamber by way of a feed gate and the spring tension of the tube (its actually pretty cool to watch when testing with dummys). The bolt does not contact the round until it slams home pushing the round the rest of the way into the chamber. There is no way for the round to slide up under the extractor and it must cam over the rim on every shot. Again an example of a firearm that violates some of shootings sacred cows by design.

I disagree. It's hardly violating any "sacred cows" at all if the weapon was designed to work that way. It really sounds to me as if you're trying to define a "one size fits all" rule as far as firearms' wear is concerned - to me it would pretty much come down to "know exactly how it functions, use it as such as much as you can but have a plan for spare parts from time to time."

Anyway...we've drifted well away from the original post and I should start a thread where I call out some of shootings sacred cows and let everyone flame me....

Well, if you want a "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" type of discussion, go for it - and no "sacred cows" are in any danger yet, from what I can see

Thank you. That was the discussion I was looking for. I guess I was entirely focusing too much on black and white scenarios. I can see where I was being a little pig headed about it.

I appreciate that this is a forum where someone will actually take the time to explain why I'm wrong rather than flame away. I've been dying to have a discussion about those things but haven't had the forum (or the cajones) to ask it and speak my mind. For the record I don't drop the slide on empty chambers or drop on a chambered round I just couldn't for the life of me convince myself that I was actually damaging the pistol in any way. What I've learned is that while that may be sometimes true it isn't always true. Thanks again to those who politely helped me refine my understanding of the mechanics of firearms...I do actually mean that by the way...

[snatchel]

For what it is worth, I can tell you what I have been taught in EVERY small arms class as far as slide release. We were taught to always manually pull the slide back and let i go, not "walk it down" to chamber the first round of a magazine. Reason behind this is to ensure the round goes into full battery and the slide seats itself all the way down. I saw some guys ignore this during live fire exercises (especially with the M9--which I DESPISED, and luckily carried a SIG because of my job) that would use the slide release, and several times I saw the rounds stove pipe or whatever else. They wouldn't realize it until they tried pulling the trigger, and of course it wouldn't go off.

I personally am no expert, and couldnt tell you either way what is right or wrong according to reliability or whatever--but that is what I was taught, and what I do.

Oh, and we were taught to NEVER, NEVER stick a round in the pipe and release the slide for the obvious reasons y'all have pointed out.