Was This Class Botched?

CHL discussions that do not fit into more specific topics

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randomoutburst
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Was This Class Botched?

Post by randomoutburst »

Hey gang. Long time no post! Popping in for a not-so-quick question, and I hope it's the beginning of a more regular visit to the forum!

I've been taking my mom out shooting to prepare her to qualify for her CHL. She took her class today and came back from the class excited to tell me how well she shot; however, she also felt as though the instructor did not have control of his class. She told me some alarming things that make me suspect the class was not taught as it should have been.

1) The instructor racked several students' slides for them when the students could not do it on their own. My mother indicated that these students were not familiar with guns and probably shouldn't have been allowed to complete the course. Many seemed afraid of their weapons and some said it was the first or second time they had EVER handled a handgun. I know that MY instructor flat-out told us, "If you can't operate your weapon, leave and come back when you can."

2) The instructor insisted upon loading the magazines for the "green" students. He tried to load my mother's magazine as well, and she simply began turning her back to him when he came by to do so, since she knows darn well how to load a magazine. A student should be able to operate their weapon without assistance from the instructor; if they cannot, how qualified are they to carry the privilege of a CHL? I would have told him to bug off had he tried that with me. Geez!

3) When practicing shooting with my mother, I stressed the importance of following directions during the shooting portion of the CHL course. She was not to fire until instructed to do so. But the instructor leading her class turned a blind eye to those who fired prematurely, even though it was clear that those students were not following directions and could be a danger to other students! My mother said he kept running from lane to lane, and looked like he was anxious due to the lack of control.

4) The instructor also partnered students with each other, with one shooting while the other observed. The student observing was instructed to watch the shooter and to ensure that if the shooter began to turn around, to point them back downrange. It should be the instructor's responsibility -- not a classmate's -- to ensure that the shooters have a basic familiarity with the rules of gun safety and to ensure they are following directions. If they don't know to keep the gun downrange, THEY SHOULDN'T BE THERE! My instructor said, "If you point your gun anywhere but downrange (and that includes "up") then you can leave and try again next time."

5) The instructor evidently told students that it is OKAY to carry in a Post Office. I looked up federal law just to be sure (but I remembered from my own class) that it is NOT okay. I found "forbidden" in reference to carrying in a post office everywhere I looked. He told them it's only valid if it's posted 30.06. All students were misinformed about this law, which could potentially lead to a student inadvertently committing a crime. What a shame.

I do not feel that the class was taught correctly, and feel that some shooters were passed when they should have failed. If a student cannot operate their own weapon, how can they be expected to be a responsible CHL holder? If they're misinformed then how can they ensure they keep themselves safely within the law?

I'm so mad about how the class was run. My mom said a lot more about the "green" shooters, all of whom were female, that I didn't post here. In short, they didn't have a clue what to do and shouldn't be anywhere near a gun until they've taken a gun safety class and gone to the range a dozen times. And the instructor decided to mix them in with the experienced shooters and try to fudge them through it.

What do you think? What I've posted here is a draft I made to send to the state, but it was modified for forum posting. I haven't sent it off yet because I want to get your take on this. Were things mishandled enough to merit contacting the state over it? Sometimes you're too close to a situation to see clearly, so I want others' opinions.
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The Mad Moderate
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Re: Was This Class Botched?

Post by The Mad Moderate »

What I would do is tell DPS exactly what the problem is and they will likely put a "student" in his class to observe.
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jmra
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Re: Was This Class Botched?

Post by jmra »

Maybe. IMHO if your Mom had issues with the class I would have her contact DPS as she is the one with first hand knowledge of what occurred.

Off topic: I would be careful about saying things like "shouldn't be anywhere near a gun until ...." There is a thing called the second amendment that disagrees with you.

"privilege of a CHL" - Do you really believe a CHL is a privilege?

Mr. Cotton might disagree:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=37522

"I have read a number of posts that indicate people believe that the Texas Legislature has defined a Texas CHL is a "privilege" as opposed to a constitutional right. I presume they are basing this opinion on Tex. Gov't Code §411.202 that reads, The issuance of a license under this subchapter is a benefit to the license holder for purposes of those sections of the Penal Code to which the definition of "benefit" under Section 1.07, Penal Code, applies.

This is not what §411.202 means. This section merely states that a CHL is a "benefit" for purposes of the Texas Penal Code as defined in Tex. Penal Code §1.07(a)(7) that reads, "Benefit" means anything reasonably regarded as economic gain or advantage, including benefit to any other person in whose welfare the beneficiary is interested. By doing so, any crime that involves receiving or conferring a benefit like selling a CHL-100, or wrongfully denying a CHL-100, etc. applies to a CHL.

So rest easy, the Legislature didn't relegate a CHL to a mere "privilege" as that term seems to be used in a number of threads.

Chas."
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Re: Was This Class Botched?

Post by thatguy »

I have noticed in most of my CHL classes that a certain percentage of shooters may be nervous or even unfamilair on how to run their gun. It is difficult where to draw the line when asking a student to leave, because that is not the goal of the course. Obviously safety is our number one priority but I am usually in an indoor ranger with barriers between students so that helps make my job easier.

I have also had some elderly or handicapped students who struggle with certain controls and gun functions and I will go out of my way to help them, but that does not mean I "give" them the course.

At the end of every qualification I take the time to reinforce the benifits of training and practice while the experience is still fresh in the students mind.

Congatulations on your mother obtaining her CHL. :clapping:
Last edited by thatguy on Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
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drjoker
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Re: Was This Class Botched?

Post by drjoker »

It's o.k. that first time shooters had their slides racked for them. I mean, if this person carries no reloads and his/her spouse loads the gun for them he/she carries/uses it then what's the big deal? As long as he/she knows his/her limitations, it's fine. For example, if this person is a poor shot, then this person could choose only to shoot to get an attacker off her such as a rapist. This person decides not to shoot across the room, for example.

Also, although it is illegal to carry in the post office, is it really illegal if the law is in breach of the constitution? This is a case of maybe beating the rap if you have millions to pay for legal fees all the way up to the supreme court, but not beating the ride. After all, in Columbia vs Heller, the supreme court stated that it is illegal to have an outright ban on guns. If the post office is the only provider of mail service in small towns, then is it not an outright ban on guns for anyone wanting to mail stuff in a small town?

The bill of rights that include the right to bear arms (2nd amendment) are unalienable basic human rights. How can you justify having to take a class and pay a fee to exercise an unalienable basic human right? That would be like requiring you to take a class and pay a fee before you may discuss politics with someone (1st amendment). It's o.k. for the class to be "botched" because the class shouldn't exist in the first place.

Just playing devil's advocate here.... :evil2:
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Re: Was This Class Botched?

Post by The Annoyed Man »

When my wife shot her qualification, she did reasonably well.....meaning she more than passed. BUT..... (and Marty and Crossfire will attest to this)..... it was shot outdoors in a cow pasture on a blustery January day. The temperature was 23º—not counting the wind chill factor—and it was sleeting off and on. My wife had difficulty loading her magazine because her hands were freezing and her hands are not that strong to begin with due to age and long-term work related carpal tunnel injury, which was exacerbated by that cold weather.

One of the instructors assisted her with loading her magazine. I don't see a problem with that.

Yes, a person who carries a gun ought to know how to do so safely. My wife can do it, although she finds it much more difficult than do a lot of men. But I don't see the inability to load a magazine or a speedloader by oneself as a disqualified to carrying a gun. How many members here carry spare ammo by the box in their pockets so that they can recharge their magazines in the middle of a gunfight? I'm guessing pretty close to zero. As long as you can pick up a magazine, insert it in the gun, and release the slide, you're go to go...........but there is no moral requisite that you be able to even do this in order to carry. If you can't rack the slide to chamber a reload, then you simply carry whatever the gun's capacity is, and hope that it will be enough if it is ever needed.

The men who wrote the Bill of Rights carried, or had available to them to carry, single shot muzzle loading smoothbore pistols. The ability to charge a double stack magazine, insert it into a handgun, and then release the slide was not considered a requirement to the exercise of their right to keep and bear arms. Nor should it be a requirement for us today.
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Re: Was This Class Botched?

Post by jimlongley »

jmra wrote:Maybe. IMHO if your Mom had issues with the class I would have her contact DPS as she is the one with first hand knowledge of what occurred.

Off topic: I would be careful about saying things like "shouldn't be anywhere near a gun until ...." There is a thing called the second amendment that disagrees with you.

"privilege of a CHL" - Do you really believe a CHL is a privilege?

Mr. Cotton might disagree:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=37522

"I have read a number of posts that indicate people believe that the Texas Legislature has defined a Texas CHL is a "privilege" as opposed to a constitutional right. I presume they are basing this opinion on Tex. Gov't Code §411.202 that reads, The issuance of a license under this subchapter is a benefit to the license holder for purposes of those sections of the Penal Code to which the definition of "benefit" under Section 1.07, Penal Code, applies.

This is not what §411.202 means. This section merely states that a CHL is a "benefit" for purposes of the Texas Penal Code as defined in Tex. Penal Code §1.07(a)(7) that reads, "Benefit" means anything reasonably regarded as economic gain or advantage, including benefit to any other person in whose welfare the beneficiary is interested. By doing so, any crime that involves receiving or conferring a benefit like selling a CHL-100, or wrongfully denying a CHL-100, etc. applies to a CHL.

So rest easy, the Legislature didn't relegate a CHL to a mere "privilege" as that term seems to be used in a number of threads.

Chas."
I don't recall seeing that post from Charles, but would have taken the opposing point of view based on the fact that the State of Texas issues a license to carry concealed based on their determination that the person is license-able. This, to me, and to many others that I know of, reduces our "right" to keep and bear arms to something less than a right, and I would argue that the proper term for a right granted by the state is indeed "privilege."

-----------------------------------

As far as Post Office carry goes, I have had CHL instructors tell it both ways, that it is definitely illegal, and that it is definitely legal. There being no case law or Supreme Court decisions that state either way, I prefer to err on the side of illegal, but it still seems to me that peacefully carrying under a CHL, for self defense, is in and of itself legal, meaning that the section of 18 USC 930 which exempts "the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes." basically says it's legal.
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Re: Was This Class Botched?

Post by The Annoyed Man »

Jim, there's what you think it means or ought to mean, and then there is the legislature's actual intent. Now, they could be wrong according to your interpretations, but that doesn't change their intent.....which was that CHL is a benefit, and not a privilege.

Personally, I call it a restriction on my rights that I have to live with in order to stay out of jail until the day of jubilee when Texas passes Constitutional Carry and issues permits only for purposes of reciprocity with other states.
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Re: Was This Class Botched?

Post by jimlongley »

The Annoyed Man wrote:The men who wrote the Bill of Rights carried, or had available to them to carry, single shot muzzle loading smoothbore pistols. The ability to charge a double stack magazine, insert it into a handgun, and then release the slide was not considered a requirement to the exercise of their right to keep and bear arms. Nor should it be a requirement for us today.
TAM, does this mean the pistol I have, from that era, is a fake? Mine has rifling. :biggrinjester:

Actually, having been a black powder shooter for many decades, I would venture to suggest that loading any front stuffer is far more complicated and requires more dexterity and strength than filling a magazine and racking a slide. If anything our modern guns are easier to load.

The right does not state "Only those who have proved themselves capable of operating the arm in all aspects will be granted the privilege of bearing arms." and, for that matter, it doesn't even limit the types of arms, and since grenades, cannon and many others existed, or at least had been thought of, they should be protected too.

TAM, cross posting, I see little distinction between "benefit" and "privilege" which indeed falls under "what I think it means" but the fact remains that licensing a right reduces it to something less than a right, no matter what it gets called, and I would whole heartedly agree that from now on we should call it "The restriction of CHL." And I will joyfully celebrate with you, with "salutes" etc, on that jubilee day. Not only should "Constitutional Carry" be the law in TX, but it should be the law of the land.
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Re: Was This Class Botched?

Post by b322da »

randomoutburst wrote: What do you think? What I've posted here is a draft I made to send to the state, but it was modified for forum posting. I haven't sent it off yet because I want to get your take on this. Were things mishandled enough to merit contacting the state over it? Sometimes you're too close to a situation to see clearly, so I want others' opinions.
Do it ASAP. Your reaction is absolutely correct in all respects. In my opinion you, and we, have a responsibility to report such incompetent, ignorant and irresponsible instructors to DPS, so that never again do they besmirch us who take our CHL, and the law, seriously.

Pay no attention to absurd advice along the lines of "the 2d Amendment means that the state even requiring a CHL license is unconstitutional." Here again we see advice based upon what someone personally would like to see the 2A mean, rather than what it has been demonstrated to actually mean, which is just as irresponsible as the CHL instructor your mom experienced. I have waited for years for individuals here giving such incorrect and misleading advice to put their money, and their liberty, on the line in support of their opinions about the meaning of the 2A. In vain have I looked for a Heller or McDonald here. Such advice by members of this forum to persons, particularly those new at the game, is well-calculated to put those persons receiving the advice at risk, not the one dispensing the advice, the latter going merrily on his way.

Your mom's instructor is a hazard putting deadly weapons into the holsters and purses of unqualified persons. This instructor demeans you, me, and all the others who take their privilege, yes, privilege, seriously and are proud of it, and he is not worthy of the honor of being called an "instructor."

Indeed, this instructor is working just as hard as he can to set back the cause of those like many of us here who support the responsible possession and use of firearms while keeping in mind the requirements of the law, whether or not we personally like that law as it clearly is at this moment.

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Re: Was This Class Botched?

Post by texas-sig »

About a month ago we booked in a chl instructor that was going to the students homes and having class in the living room. The "students" were ready to go in about two hours. No range time or any explanations of the laws. Don't know what happened to this "instructor" but he made bail in like four hours of arrival at county. Sometimes you just don't know what these instructors are thinking but not all are the same.
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Re: Was This Class Botched?

Post by retrieverman »

I know of another instructor who gives abbrieviated classes with no shooting, and I guess he is still in business. My parents, brother, and sister in law took the course, and I was furious at the time. In my opinion, it really wasn't an issue with my Dad and brother as they are familiar with guns and shooting, but my Mom and SIL are not. This course was a total disservice to them aside from being against the law.

I believe your Mom need to report this since she has the first hand knowledge of what happened.
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Re: Was This Class Botched?

Post by SQLGeek »

retrieverman wrote:I know of another instructor who gives abbrieviated classes with no shooting, and I guess he is still in business. My parents, brother, and sister in law took the course, and I was furious at the time. In my opinion, it really wasn't an issue with my Dad and brother as they are familiar with guns and shooting, but my Mom and SIL are not. This course was a total disservice to them aside from being against the law.

I believe your Mom need to report this since she has the first hand knowledge of what happened.
This instructor needs to be reported to DPS, pronto.
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Re: Was This Class Botched?

Post by drjoker »

SQLGeek wrote:
retrieverman wrote:I know of another instructor who gives abbrieviated classes with no shooting, and I guess he is still in business. My parents, brother, and sister in law took the course, and I was furious at the time. In my opinion, it really wasn't an issue with my Dad and brother as they are familiar with guns and shooting, but my Mom and SIL are not. This course was a total disservice to them aside from being against the law.

I believe your Mom need to report this since she has the first hand knowledge of what happened.
This instructor needs to be reported to DPS, pronto.
Actually, it's probably legal and legit because some states have lower requirements for a chl, including no shooting and abbreviated classes. Some people get an out of state license for a state license recognized by Texas. I don't suggest that you do so, because the shooting is actually fun and the most instructors are actually informative. The dollar amount isn't really that much of an issue if you think about it as a dollar amount divided into the number of days in 3 years. Just get the Texas license. Don't be such a tightwad.
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Re: Was This Class Botched?

Post by SQLGeek »

OK assuming this is a Texas CHL instructor, he needs to be reported pronto.
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