Was This Class Botched?

[The Annoyed Man]

I think we all have the RIGHT to carry a gun, however I think we also have the RESPONSIBILITY to others to know how to safely operate a handgun. If you cannot carry it safely I think you have no business carrying it anywhere.

I have no problem with that statement at all. I only question whether, in abstract terms, that is something for which the government ought to have a mandate to regulate it.

No. Personal Responsibility should regulate it IMHO

I completely agree.

[b322da]

We're going to have to sit down in the shade somewhere and solve these things over a glass of cold beer some day. Oh, how people would talk.....

Shade? What's that? What's the world coming to? I suspect you might prefer Miller Lite or Lone Star? Make it Stella Artois in a proper glass, or a pint of real British lager, and I might track you down, Chris, and my treat.
Elmo

[b322da]

I think we all have the RIGHT to carry a gun, however I think we also have the RESPONSIBILITY to others to know how to safely operate a handgun. If you cannot carry it safely I think you have no business carrying it anywhere.

I have no problem with that statement at all. I only question whether, in abstract terms, that is something for which the government ought to have a mandate to regulate it.

No. Personal Responsibility should regulate it IMHO

LL,

How does society define and regulate "personal responsibility," whatever that is, when it gets crosswise with the natural rights of others?
1. Criminal law?
2. Tort law?
3. Forget it (anarchy)?

Or, ____________. ?

Elmo

[¿Qué?]

What do you think? What I've posted here is a draft I made to send to the state, but it was modified for forum posting. I haven't sent it off yet because I want to get your take on this. Were things mishandled enough to merit contacting the state over it? Sometimes you're too close to a situation to see clearly, so I want others' opinions.

I don't think there's any real difference between the instructor manipulating the gun for a student on the range test and the instructor answering questions for a student on the written test.

I think it's a small step from there to here -----> viewtopic.php?f=18&t=45414" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't know what DPS thinks. Your mama should write DPS and tell them what happened. That gives DPS the chance to decide what to do, but they won't get the chance if your mama keeps quiet.

[Crossfire]

I don't think there's any real difference between the instructor manipulating the gun for a student on the range test and the instructor answering questions for a student on the written test.

Manipulating the gun? You mean like putting my hands over the students hands, holding the gun, lining up on the target, and squeezing the trigger for them? No, we don't do that.

But I don't think that helping someone load magazines, and giving them some coaching on the line, is anything other than "teaching". That is why it is called a CHL CLASS.

[JP171]

correct me if I am wrong, but isn't proper and safe hadling of a handgun a required part of the class?

[jmra]

correct me if I am wrong, but isn't proper and safe hadling of a handgun a required part of the class?

GC §411.188 states that the applicant must demostrate that they are proficient in the safe operation of the weapon in the catorgory of handgun under which they are applying. So how does one demonstrate such? "The director by rule shall establish minimum standards for handgun proficiency and shall develop a course to teach handgun proficiency and examinations to measure handgun proficiency."

The rule established by the director is RULE §6.11 which I have posted below along with GC §411.188. The first part of RULE §6.11 deals with the shooting portion (how many rounds at how many feet). Then states the following:

(b) A student must score at least 70% on the written examination and shooting proficiency examination, in order to establish proficiency. A student will have three opportunities to pass the written examination and shooting proficiency examination.
(c) An instructor must submit failures of the written examination or shooting examination to the department on the class completion notification and must indicate if the failure occurred after the student had been given three opportunities to pass the examination.
(d) Upon successful completion of both the written and shooting proficiency examinations, the qualified handgun instructor may certify that the concealed handgun license applicant has established his or her proficiency, in a manner to be determined by the department.

If you do not achieve at least 70% on both test within 3 attempts then you fail. If you pass both the instructor "may" certify that you have established proficiency.
That brings us to:

(k) A qualified handgun instructor may submit to the department a written recommendation for disapproval of the application for a license,
renewal, or modification of a license, accompanied by an affidavit stating personal knowledge or naming persons with personal knowledge
of facts that lead the instructor to believe that an applicant does not possess the required handgun proficiency. The department may
use a written recommendation submitted under this subsection as the basis for denial of a license only if the department determines that the
recommendation is made in good faith and is supported by a preponderance of the evidence. The department shall make a determination
under this subsection not later than the 45th day after the date the department receives the written recommendation. The 60-day period
in which the department must take action under Section 411.177(b) is extended one day for each day a determination is pending under this
subsection.

I will let an instructor comment on when and how often section K would be used/apply.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GC §411.188. HANDGUN PROFICIENCY REQUIREMENT. (a) The director by rule shall establish minimum standards for handgun proficiency
and shall develop a course to teach handgun proficiency and examinations to measure handgun proficiency. The course to teach
handgun proficiency must contain training sessions divided into two parts. One part of the course must be classroom instruction and the
other part must be range instruction and an actual demonstration by the applicant of the applicant's ability to safely and proficiently use the
applicable category of handgun. An applicant must be able to demonstrate, at a minimum, the degree of proficiency that is required to effectively
operate a handgun of .32 caliber or above. The department shall distribute the standards, course requirements, and examinations on
request to any qualified handgun instructor.


RULE §6.11
(a) The proficiency demonstration course will be the same for both instructors and license applications. The course of fire will be at distances of three, seven, and fifteen yards, for a total of fifty rounds.
(1) Twenty rounds will be fired from three yards, as follows:
(A) five rounds will be fired "One Shot Exercise"; two seconds allowed for each shot;
(B) ten rounds will be fired "Two Shot Exercise"; three seconds allowed for each two shots; and
(C) five rounds will be fired; ten seconds allowed for five shots.
(2) Twenty rounds will be fired from seven yards, fired in four five-shot strings as follows:
(A) the first five shots will be fired in ten seconds;
(B) the next five shots will be fired in two stages:
(i) two shots will be fired in four seconds; and
(ii) three shots will be fired in six seconds.
(C) the next five shots at seven yards will be fired "One Shot Exercise"; three seconds will be allowed for each shot; and
(D) the last five shots fired at the seven-yard line, the time will be fifteen seconds to shoot five rounds.
(3) Ten rounds will be fired from fifteen yards, fired in two five-shot strings as follows:
(A) the first five shots will be fired in two stages:
(i) two shots fired in six seconds; and
(ii) three shots fired in nine seconds.
(B) the last five shots will be fired in fifteen seconds.
(b) A student must score at least 70% on the written examination and shooting proficiency examination, in order to establish proficiency. A student will have three opportunities to pass the written examination and shooting proficiency examination.
(c) An instructor must submit failures of the written examination or shooting examination to the department on the class completion notification and must indicate if the failure occurred after the student had been given three opportunities to pass the examination.
(d) Upon successful completion of both the written and shooting proficiency examinations, the qualified handgun instructor may certify that the concealed handgun license applicant has established his or her proficiency, in a manner to be determined by the department.

[apostate]

correct me if I am wrong, but isn't proper and safe hadling of a handgun a required part of the class?

So are "the laws that relate to weapons and to the use of deadly force" but I think Que? makes a fair point.
There's a difference between teaching students before the test and teaching students during the test.

[jmra]

I don't think there's any real difference between the instructor manipulating the gun for a student on the range test and the instructor answering questions for a student on the written test.

Manipulating the gun? You mean like putting my hands over the students hands, holding the gun, lining up on the target, and squeezing the trigger for them? No, we don't do that.

But I don't think that helping someone load magazines, and giving them some coaching on the line, is anything other than "teaching". That is why it is called a CHL CLASS.

[E.Marquez]

You stated, “The green people in that class didn't know the gun safety rules, didn't know how to rack the slide, some couldn't even load a magazine, etc.”

Please tell how any of these claims violate the rules provided by the director in accordance with the law. Which part of RULE §6.11 did they not know? Nothing in RULE §6.11 requires that they know how to rack a slide or load a magazine.
.

simply put, the weapon must be loaded and manipulated to fire those qualifying shots you listed above. A person unable to load, and manipulate said weapon in to a condition where they can fire it demonstrating proficiency can not abide by the law as it is.

I sure an actual lawyer can see an error in my position...I can not however find anything wrong in my opinion. which is based on common sense and understanding of the intent...I fail to see who the words 'shooting proficiency examination" can mean so little to some, and be so obvious to others.

[E.Marquez]

I don't think there's any real difference between the instructor manipulating the gun for a student on the range test and the instructor answering questions for a student on the written test.

Manipulating the gun? You mean like putting my hands over the students hands, holding the gun, lining up on the target, and squeezing the trigger for them? No, we don't do that.

But I don't think that helping someone load magazines, and giving them some coaching on the line, is anything other than "teaching". That is why it is called a CHL CLASS.

THAT hits the mark,, TEACHING a new shooter how to be proficient is what it is all about.. Doing FOR THEM and then signing off on the paperwork.. Well i suppose, if you can sleep at night and your lawyer believes you have done the minimum required within the law regardless of intent or common sense.. Then.. if it works for you.

Thank you Crossfire

[thatguy]

I don't think there's any real difference between the instructor manipulating the gun for a student on the range test and the instructor answering questions for a student on the written test.

Manipulating the gun? You mean like putting my hands over the students hands, holding the gun, lining up on the target, and squeezing the trigger for them? No, we don't do that.

But I don't think that helping someone load magazines, and giving them some coaching on the line, is anything other than "teaching". That is why it is called a CHL CLASS.

[jmra]

You stated, “The green people in that class didn't know the gun safety rules, didn't know how to rack the slide, some couldn't even load a magazine, etc.”

Please tell how any of these claims violate the rules provided by the director in accordance with the law. Which part of RULE §6.11 did they not know? Nothing in RULE §6.11 requires that they know how to rack a slide or load a magazine.
.

simply put, the weapon must be loaded and manipulated to fire those qualifying shots you listed above. A person unable to load, and manipulate said weapon in to a condition where they can fire it demonstrating proficiency can not abide by the law as it is.

I sure an actual lawyer can see an error in my position...I can not however find anything wrong in my opinion. which is based on common sense and understanding of the intent...I fail to see who the words 'shooting proficiency examination" can mean so little to some, and be so obvious to others.

I am not a lawyer but I do believe I can show you the error in your position. Remember, we are not talking about common sense we are talking about the letter of the law. No where in the rules established per the law does it state that the student is required to load the gun. I agree that the gun must be loaded to shoot the rounds but no where in the law does it state that the student is the one who has to do it. What if the student only has one hand and does not have the coordination with their one hand to load either a revolver or SA but they can still aim the gun and hit the target. Are you going to deny that student the right to protect themselves because of a disability? I think not. How does not being able to load a gun directly affect a persons ability to properly and safely fire a loaded gun?

The fact of the matter is the law is what the law is. Just because you want the law to say or mean something or you think that it should say or mean something doesn't make it so. GC §411.188 states that the applicant must demonstrate that they are proficient in the safe operation of the weapon in the category of handgun under which they are applying. How does one demonstrate such? "The director by rule shall establish minimum standards for handgun proficiency and shall develop a course to teach handgun proficiency and examinations to measure handgun proficiency." The rule established by the director is RULE §6.11. This rule lays out the requirements for proficiency. I will post 6.11 again so that there is no question about how the law establishes proficiency.

RULE §6.11
(a) The proficiency demonstration course will be the same for both instructors and license applications. The course of fire will be at distances of three, seven, and fifteen yards, for a total of fifty rounds.
(1) Twenty rounds will be fired from three yards, as follows:
(A) five rounds will be fired "One Shot Exercise"; two seconds allowed for each shot;
(B) ten rounds will be fired "Two Shot Exercise"; three seconds allowed for each two shots; and
(C) five rounds will be fired; ten seconds allowed for five shots.
(2) Twenty rounds will be fired from seven yards, fired in four five-shot strings as follows:
(A) the first five shots will be fired in ten seconds;
(B) the next five shots will be fired in two stages:
(i) two shots will be fired in four seconds; and
(ii) three shots will be fired in six seconds.
(C) the next five shots at seven yards will be fired "One Shot Exercise"; three seconds will be allowed for each shot; and
(D) the last five shots fired at the seven-yard line, the time will be fifteen seconds to shoot five rounds.
(3) Ten rounds will be fired from fifteen yards, fired in two five-shot strings as follows:
(A) the first five shots will be fired in two stages:
(i) two shots fired in six seconds; and
(ii) three shots fired in nine seconds.
(B) the last five shots will be fired in fifteen seconds.
(b) A student must score at least 70% on the written examination and shooting proficiency examination, in order to establish proficiency. A student will have three opportunities to pass the written examination and shooting proficiency examination.
(c) An instructor must submit failures of the written examination or shooting examination to the department on the class completion notification and must indicate if the failure occurred after the student had been given three opportunities to pass the examination.
(d) Upon successful completion of both the written and shooting proficiency examinations, the qualified handgun instructor may certify that the concealed handgun license applicant has established his or her proficiency, in a manner to be determined by the department.

The only action related to the gun even mentioned in the rule is the word "fired". According to the rule as established by law, if the student can fire the gun at the target and score a minimum of 70% then they have met that portion of the requirement. No where in the rule does it state how the gun must be loaded or by whom. Now if the instructor doesn't want to help the student load the mag and chamber a round and the student can't do it themselves then they are obviously not going to be able to complete the requirement and they will fail. But there is nothing in the rule preventing the instructor or someone else with the instructors approval from loading every single round fired out of that gun. That is solely up to the instructor. Crossfire even stated in a post that you agreed with that there is nothing wrong with helping someone load a magazine.

Now I am not a lawyer and I am not an instructor but I am a pretty good reader. If you can provide some portion of the law that you feel contradicts what I have stated I will be glad to read it and if I am wrong I will be the first to admit it.

I thought I would add a couple of things about the class I attended. My instructor is a former marine who for years taught raw marines how to become marksmen. He has been an instructor for 10 years. Based on what I have read and heard he is one of the best instructors in the state. Some quotes from his website: (pay close attention to the last quote)

"If you are new to shooting, and want a relaxed, non intimidating atmosphere to learn gun safety, manipulation, marksmanship, this is a great place to learn to shoot, and get qualified in the same day for your TEXAS CHL."

"We take the extra time to get you safe and familiar with a weapon at class and get you qualified! It is what CHL is all about!"

"Guaranteed You Will pass our Range and CHL Class!"

[thatguy]

I for one would think twice before I call DPS to lodge a complaint on an instructor for two reasons.

1. As a CHL instructor it looks bad on me (like I am a "tattle tale" of sorts).

2. Most of the problems I hear about other instructors are opinion based, like a teaching method or style, it may be different than the way you teach it but does it make them wrong? I think not.

3. DPS has enough stuff to do, so if I am going to call them I try to make it a reasonable concern.

4. We as CHL holders and instructors need to keep our own house clean by working together.

I am not saying that I will not report someone, because I have, but I have a responsibility to consider the fact as well as my motives.

[KaiserB]

....

Also, although it [carry in the post office]is illegal to carry in the post office, is it really illegal if the law is in breach of the constitution?:

I don't know ... is it really illegal to drive 110 MPH on I-20 after all the speed limit law is breaching my Constitutional right to travel.

We are currently bound by the laws of the land, thus the class should be teaching within the confines of those laws.