Was This Class Botched?

[sjfcontrol]

I like to see that the student is capable of properly loading at least a round or two into the magazine. I am willing to advise/show the student how that is done, which direction the cartridges go, etc. if needed, I then ask that the student properly insert 1 or 2 rounds.

However, I have seen handicapped individuals, as well as some elderly with arthritis, that makes it very difficult, painful, and ultimately VERY time consuming to load each round. I don't feel it is fair to the rest of the class -- or to the handicapped or inexperienced individual, to require they load ALL of their rounds themselves while everybody waits around (possibly in 105 degree full sunshine). Also, if a person were physically incapable of doing so, I would not fail him for the inability to load even a single round. In fact, that might even be regarded as illegal -- in violation of the Americans with disabilities act. You must accommodate disabilities when possible.

I did have one student with a brand-new gun, who knew how to load the magazine, but couldn't get the round to push down the follower. I took the magazine, and even I had a lot of difficulty getting the first round in. It seemed like the follower was purposefully shaped to make the round push off to the side. And the spring was so strong the round would push off before the spring would compress. We both fought with that magazine until the spring started to relax just a bit.

[texas-sig]

About a month ago we booked in a chl instructor that was going to the students homes and having class in the living room. The "students" were ready to go in about two hours. No range time or any explanations of the laws. Don't know what happened to this "instructor" but he made bail in like four hours of arrival at county. Sometimes you just don't know what these instructors are thinking but not all are the same.

Do you have any more details on that case, there is a thread running here http://texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=45414" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; about a CHL instructor selling CHl-100s

Don't remember the name of the instructor or if it's the same case, but there were three individuals that got booked that same night for the same thing (forgery of government records). One of them was the chl instructor and the other two would get him the "students". The only reason i read the report was because when i ran the guy for local warrants and ncic/tcic check, it reveled he had a valid chl license. I will try and look up the report and see if it's the same one.

[The Annoyed Man]

We're going to have to sit down in the shade somewhere and solve these things over a glass of cold beer some day. Oh, how people would talk.....

Shade? What's that? What's the world coming to? I suspect you might prefer Miller Lite or Lone Star? Make it Stella Artois in a proper glass, or a pint of real British lager, and I might track you down, Chris, and my treat.
Elmo

Elmo,

Miller Lite? Them's fightin' words! No, I prefer a good lager, or better yet, a truly dark and mortal beer that hints at mysterious goings on. I accept, and I'll buy the second round.

[sjfcontrol]

We're going to have to sit down in the shade somewhere and solve these things over a glass of cold beer some day. Oh, how people would talk.....

Shade? What's that? What's the world coming to? I suspect you might prefer Miller Lite or Lone Star? Make it Stella Artois in a proper glass, or a pint of real British lager, and I might track you down, Chris, and my treat.
Elmo

Elmo,

Miller Lite? Them's fightin' words! No, I prefer a good lager, or better yet, a truly dark and mortal beer that hints at mysterious goings on. I accept, and I'll buy the second round.

Is this another "beer summit"?

[jimlongley]

I don't know ... is it really illegal to drive 110 MPH on I-20 after all the speed limit law is breaching my Constitutional right to travel.

We are currently bound by the laws of the land, thus the class should be teaching within the confines of those laws.

Recognizing that "privilege" is under review as an appropriate descriptor for the state granting the ability to do something with a license.

Nope, nobody is doing anything to your "right to travel" they are just limiting your privilege of driving on a public highway. You are free to travel at any speed on private highways.

This is one of those arguments that I really enjoy, when some anti-gun nut spouts about driver's licenses and vehicle registrations. The only reason you are required to have a driver's license, or to register a vehicle, is to drive on the public highways, you can drive any vehicle without a license on private land.

I usually turn the argument around by agreeing to licensing and registration of guns on the same basis, just build ranges, with public funds, all over the country, that I can walk into and shoot on, with any gun I register (think 200mph capable cars and huge trucks) at any time of the day or night. And of course that will not limit my gun ownership to just those guns, it will only effect the ones I use on the public ranges, all of the guns I use only on my own, or other, private property are as exempt as all of my unregistered vehicles.

[b322da]

We're going to have to sit down in the shade somewhere and solve these things over a glass of cold beer some day. Oh, how people would talk.....

Shade? What's that? What's the world coming to? I suspect you might prefer Miller Lite or Lone Star? Make it Stella Artois in a proper glass, or a pint of real British lager, and I might track you down, Chris, and my treat.
Elmo

Elmo,

Miller Lite? Them's fightin' words! No, I prefer a good lager, or better yet, a truly dark and mortal beer that hints at mysterious goings on. I accept, and I'll buy the second round.

Is this another "beer summit"?

Absolutely, sjf. And we will solve the debt limit problem, too. All it takes is two sides both having common sense and a willingness to compromise. Haven't TAM and I demonstrated that is the case with us?

Elmo

[bkj]

I like to see that the student is capable of properly loading at least a round or two into the magazine. I am willing to advise/show the student how that is done, which direction the cartridges go, etc. if needed, I then ask that the student properly insert 1 or 2 rounds.

However, I have seen handicapped individuals, as well as some elderly with arthritis, that makes it very difficult, painful, and ultimately VERY time consuming to load each round. I don't feel it is fair to the rest of the class -- or to the handicapped or inexperienced individual, to require they load ALL of their rounds themselves while everybody waits around (possibly in 105 degree full sunshine). Also, if a person were physically incapable of doing so, I would not fail him for the inability to load even a single round. In fact, that might even be regarded as illegal -- in violation of the Americans with disabilities act. You must accommodate disabilities when possible.

I did have one student with a brand-new gun, who knew how to load the magazine, but couldn't get the round to push down the follower. I took the magazine, and even I had a lot of difficulty getting the first round in. It seemed like the follower was purposefully shaped to make the round push off to the side. And the spring was so strong the round would push off before the spring would compress. We both fought with that magazine until the spring started to relax just a bit.

+1

GC §411.188. HANDGUN PROFICIENCY REQUIREMENT. (a) The
director by rule shall establish minimum standards for handgun proficiency
and shall develop a course to teach handgun proficiency and
examinations to measure handgun proficiency. The course to teach
handgun proficiency must contain training sessions divided into two
parts. One part of the course must be classroom instruction and the
other part must be range instruction AND an actual demonstration by
the applicant of the applicant's ability to safely and proficiently use the
applicable category of handgun. An applicant must be able to demonstrate,
at a minimum, the degree of proficiency that is required to effectively
operate a handgun of .32 caliber or above. The department shall
distribute the standards, course requirements, and examinations on
request to any qualified handgun instructor.


(k) A qualified handgun instructor may submit to the department a
written recommendation for disapproval of the application for a license,
renewal, or modification of a license, accompanied by an affidavit
stating personal knowledge or naming persons with personal knowledge
of facts that lead the instructor to believe that an applicant does
not possess the required handgun proficiency. The department may
use a written recommendation submitted under this subsection as the
basis for denial of a license only if the department determines that the
recommendation is made in good faith and is supported by a preponderance
of the evidence. The department shall make a determination
under this subsection not later than the 45th day after the date the
department receives the written recommendation. The 60-day period
in which the department must take action under Section 411.177(b) is
extended one day for each day a determination is pending under this
subsection.

First we do need to look at the entire section. To me aside from the actual shooting there is a lot of leeway in the letter of the law. Range instruction? Effectively Operate? I do not have a privet range to shoot at. So I do not have the luxury of time to teach basic shoot to students. Other CHL instructors are waiting to use the range. But that does not limit other instructors from doing so. As for loading if I have a student that is slow I will load for them to keep things moving. But only after I have observed them load a couple times.

[punkndisorderly]

Without having been there, I won't say that it was botched. I will say that I feel your mother should, if she feels it was botched, contact DPS and file a complaint. DPS can decided if it warrants investigation. If they do, they'll decide if the instructor meets the standard or not.

CHL instructors are acting as agents of the state to carry out the course within the guidelines set by the state. If a CHL instructor is unable or unwilling to do so, they shouldn't be a CHL instructor. Period.

Part of the guidelines are that "An applicant must be able to demonstrate, at a minimum, the degree of proficiency that is required to effectively operate a handgun of .32 caliber or above." While it's not detailed what that proficiency is past being able to point the gun in generally the right direction and score the required score, I think very few of us would consider someone without the ability to safely load, fire, and unload their weapon to be proficient.

I think part of the problem is also that some instructors take on too many students of the wrong skill level for them to effectively instruct. The code says "The course to teach handgun proficiency must contain training sessions divided into two parts. One part of the course must be classroom instruction and the other part must be range instruction and an actual demonstration by the applicant of the applicant's ability to safely and proficiently use the applicable category of handgun." Part of the goal of the course is "to teach hand gun proficiency." if you have a class full of people who have never shot before, you'll have your hands full trying to instruct them.

[BigPa]

When I renewed the last time, we had a lady with one of the tilt barrel 380's. She had no idea how to open it and load it. The instructor showed her about the gun. At 3 yards, she was all over the target. He stopped her at that time. They told her they would be happy to give her some instructions and then let her take the test again at a later date. They said they would not refund her money, but that after some training of some kind, she would be able to take the course again with having to pay again.

That I feel was a proper response.....

[tacticool]

Without having been there, I won't say that it was botched. I will say that I feel your mother should, if she feels it was botched, contact DPS and file a complaint. DPS can decided if it warrants investigation. If they do, they'll decide if the instructor meets the standard or not.

CHL instructors are acting as agents of the state to carry out the course within the guidelines set by the state. If a CHL instructor is unable or unwilling to do so, they shouldn't be a CHL instructor. Period.

Part of the guidelines are that "An applicant must be able to demonstrate, at a minimum, the degree of proficiency that is required to effectively operate a handgun of .32 caliber or above." While it's not detailed what that proficiency is past being able to point the gun in generally the right direction and score the required score, I think very few of us would consider someone without the ability to safely load, fire, and unload their weapon to be proficient.

I agree. If someone can't pass the test with a SA handgun they shouldn't get the SA license. DPS has the NSA category license for people can't operate a semiautomatic.