accuracy problems

[rentz]

So I went out to the range the other day, and noticed a similar problem I keep running into.
I'll warm up and start to get ok groups here and there but more often than not a few shots go to the left or low. Now i've been told it's probably a trigger pull issue, but when I dry fire in the mirror the pistol never budges.

I've checked my grip, all areas of the handle are covered with both thumbs facing forward and if i were to open my off hand the fingers point down at an angle. I've got my strong hand up as high as I can get it.

Now for the real curious part... I try to shoot each pistol one handed on my strong hand just for practice and every time I do this I am accurate dead center with about 1" groups. To me that would indicate its not a trigger pull issue right? I also notice It's much easier for me to acquire a good sight picture one handed. Maybe because the arm is extended further forward and straighter?

[mrvmax]

This chart will give you some possible causes:
http://rimfireshooting.com/index.php?showtopic=2502" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Texas Dan Mosby]

Now i've been told it's probably a trigger pull issue, but when I dry fire in the mirror the pistol never budges.

Take a look at exactly what part of your trigger finger you are using to break off the shot. You may need to put a little more finger on the trigger to provide you with better leverage in order to press the trigger straight to the rear. Not enough finger tends to push the gun to the left, and too much tends to pull the gun to the right. Trigger weight and individual finger strength dictates which part of the trigger finger the shooter needs to use in order to get the right leverage, and it can change from gun to gun, and shooter to shooter.

Incorporate dry fire at the range before, during, and after you shoot. Shooting is a mental task as much as it is a physical task, and dry fire is the tool to use to prepare your mind. Before you do grouping drills at any given range, clear your mind, run through the fundamentals, and dry fire until you get in the mental "zone". Once you get into the "zone", start your live fire grouping drill. Should you lose concentration and start throwing rounds, stop your live fire, and go back to dry until you regain your focus.

Precision shooting is demanding, and fatigue, both mental and physical, can set in faster than you may think. A simple technique to build up your mental and physical endurance is to incorporate a dry/live fire approach into the grouping drill. Start with a few dry fires, than 1 live round, take a break, than once again focus and dry fire a couple times followed by a live round. This dry / live fire scheme mixed with brief breaks should help you develop and maintain focus without making errors due to fatigue. With enough practice, you should be able to maintain the same calm and focused mindset during live fire that you develop during dry fire. You know you're in the zone when you are clearly seeing the sight rise during the break and drop right back down on target, and you can call your shot without having to look at the target.

I use this approach to grouping every time I train, and I do SOME grouping every time I shoot. I start up close at say 7M, and group all the way back to 25M with a personal goal of being able to consistently nail an 8" plate on demand from 25M. I spend less time at the ranges I shoot well (close) unless I am seriously dorking up, and focus more time at the further ranges (15M and beyond). As range increases, I allow my groups to open up accordingly, but want a group no larger than say 5 inches including fliers from 15M and beyond. That's precise enough for my purposes, which revolves around defensive accuracy.

The last thing I'll recommend is to:

1. Shoot with a buddy that can identify and help you correct fundamental errors and can assist with say, ball dummy drills.
2. Look into taking a formal class from a decent instructor.

We don't know WHAT we don't know, and depending on your experience level, a trainer can either highlight some major things that could influence your shooting, or they could highlight a couple of small points or approaches to some things you do already, but maybe in a more efficient manner.

Good luck regardless.

[rentz]

excellent advice texas dan mosby .
I need to try to do more dry fire practice at the range, I know part of my problem is I get into a mode of trying to practice with as many rounds as I can while I'm there.

I'm normally pretty attentive to finger placement, try to do middle of the first pad. But on my pm9 i have to use a little more finger to get the trigger cleanly pulled since its DA

I've been thinking of taking a class, particularly a defensive pistol class. I'm still quite the novice, the range guys at elm fork usually offer up some suggestions if it isnt too busy.

the one thing i cant wrap my mind around is why i would be so accurate one handed.

[Divided Attention]

You may be subconsciously putting a little more "grip" one handed thus a little more finger on the trigger - it doesn't take much of a different pull/push on the nose of the weapon to make a huge difference down range on the paper. JMPHO - sometimes it seems the harder I think about what I am doing, the worse I do - I have to trust my gut more and "feel" what is right. I typically know as soon as I pull the trigger if it was "good" or "right' on how it felt. Keep practicing, and I can't recommend a good defensive pistol class enough.

[MoJo]

I know part of my problem is I get into a mode of trying to practice with as many rounds as I can while I'm there.

. . .

the one thing i cant wrap my mind around is why i would be so accurate one handed.

It is better to fire 25 or 50 rounds of quality practice than to fire 200 sloppily fired rounds. The saying "practice makes perfect" is wrong. It should say "Perfect practice makes perfect."

Now about that one handed shooting - - - You probably haven't' "taught" yourself bad habits shooting one handed also, where is it written you HAVE to shoot two handed?

[mrvmax]

BTW, here is a good video on the proper way to hold a pistol, it makes a world of difference in accuracy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48

[olafpfj]

BTW, here is a good video on the proper way to hold a pistol, it makes a world of difference in accuracy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48

I took a class in California a few years ago and the instructor taught this grip but with a weaver stance. We then proceed to blaze through about 900rds in about 5 hours doing all sorts of moving and shooting all from a draw. My shooting skills and accuracy went up by leaps and bounds. My biggest enemy now is the mental and physical fatigue from work and 3 very young active kids. When I can push through it I'm very accurate but even when I can't I'm still a fairly decent shot. The way that instructor hammered that grip and technique into me has managed to stick pretty subconsciously with me.

If you are in California look up Bruce Krell @ shooters edge. It was absolutely exhausting but I came away a greatly improved shooter.

[DONT TREAD ON ME]

BTW, here is a good video on the proper way to hold a pistol, it makes a world of difference in accuracy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48

He is amazing. His control is just outstanding!

I love watching Todd Jarrett, Jerry Miculek, and Bob Munden!

[speedsix]

...interesting side note on Jerry Miceulik...he married Jim Clark's daughter...any of you grey heads remember who that was???

[Jumping Frog]

...interesting side note on Jerry Miceulik...he married Jim Clark's daughter...any of you grey heads remember who that was???

I assume you are talking about the Jim Clark of Silicon Graphics, Inc., Netscape Communications Corporation, myCFO and Healtheon.

[speedsix]

...your hair ain't NEARLY grey enough...NOPE...not him...

[Jumping Frog]

Then the Jim Clark of Clark Custom Guns?

[speedsix]

...Sr... Jr's got the company now...Jim Sr was a one-of-a-kind...lots to read about him in Google...I took a new Satin Nickel Combat Commander to him in 72, and asked him to make me an ambi safety on it so I could carry it...I don't think they were commercially available then...anyways, he hand-made me one out of stainless and drilled/tapped it for a retaining screw...when I picked it up, he said "No charge...I like to help the police...you be safe out there"...tell me that didn't mean a lot to a young guy making $600 a month...he was another old-schooler who never forgot his beginnings...a vanishing breed...

[speedsix]

Now i've been told it's probably a trigger pull issue, but when I dry fire in the mirror the pistol never budges.

Take a look at exactly what part of your trigger finger you are using to break off the shot. You may need to put a little more finger on the trigger to provide you with better leverage in order to press the trigger straight to the rear. Not enough finger tends to push the gun to the left, and too much tends to pull the gun to the right. Trigger weight and individual finger strength dictates which part of the trigger finger the shooter needs to use in order to get the right leverage, and it can change from gun to gun, and shooter to shooter.

Incorporate dry fire at the range before, during, and after you shoot. Shooting is a mental task as much as it is a physical task, and dry fire is the tool to use to prepare your mind. Before you do grouping drills at any given range, clear your mind, run through the fundamentals, and dry fire until you get in the mental "zone". Once you get into the "zone", start your live fire grouping drill. Should you lose concentration and start throwing rounds, stop your live fire, and go back to dry until you regain your focus.

Precision shooting is demanding, and fatigue, both mental and physical, can set in faster than you may think. A simple technique to build up your mental and physical endurance is to incorporate a dry/live fire approach into the grouping drill. Start with a few dry fires, than 1 live round, take a break, than once again focus and dry fire a couple times followed by a live round. This dry / live fire scheme mixed with brief breaks should help you develop and maintain focus without making errors due to fatigue. With enough practice, you should be able to maintain the same calm and focused mindset during live fire that you develop during dry fire. You know you're in the zone when you are clearly seeing the sight rise during the break and drop right back down on target, and you can call your shot without having to look at the target.

I use this approach to grouping every time I train, and I do SOME grouping every time I shoot. I start up close at say 7M, and group all the way back to 25M with a personal goal of being able to consistently nail an 8" plate on demand from 25M. I spend less time at the ranges I shoot well (close) unless I am seriously dorking up, and focus more time at the further ranges (15M and beyond). As range increases, I allow my groups to open up accordingly, but want a group no larger than say 5 inches including fliers from 15M and beyond. That's precise enough for my purposes, which revolves around defensive accuracy.

The last thing I'll recommend is to:

1. Shoot with a buddy that can identify and help you correct fundamental errors and can assist with say, ball dummy drills.
2. Look into taking a formal class from a decent instructor.

We don't know WHAT we don't know, and depending on your experience level, a trainer can either highlight some major things that could influence your shooting, or they could highlight a couple of small points or approaches to some things you do already, but maybe in a more efficient manner.

Good luck regardless.

...this kinda stuff is what I love about this place!!!! Thanks!!!