Another no knock blunder, this time cop dies!!!

[seamusTX]

Something in the original story does not add up.

The police apparently claimed that the guy fired through his door and hit a police officer who was standing in the yard. Somehow I doubt that a .380 would be capable of this unless you pressed the gun up against a screen door or something. Also, simple balistics tests on the hole in the door should show where the officer was located when he was hit.

Incidents like this are investigated by the police. They can't help being biased when investigating the killing of a police officer. That's not even including political pressure to remove liability from the city.

Usually they bring in the state police or state bureau of investigation, or in our case the Texas Rangers. But there still is the inherent bias in the killing of a police officer.

I'm not saying anyone intentionally lied or fabricated evidence, but there is a tendency to find what they are looking for when they have a preconceived notion about how events unfolded.

- Jim

[philip964]

Something in the original story does not add up.

The police apparently claimed that the guy fired through his door and hit a police officer who was standing in the yard. Somehow I doubt that a .380 would be capable of this unless you pressed the gun up against a screen door or something. Also, simple balistics tests on the hole in the door should show where the officer was located when he was hit.

Incidents like this are investigated by the police. They can't help being biased when investigating the killing of a police officer. That's not even including political pressure to remove liability from the city.

Usually they bring in the state police or state bureau of investigation, or in our case the Texas Rangers. But there still is the inherent bias in the killing of a police officer.

I'm not saying anyone intentionally lied or fabricated evidence, but there is a tendency to find what they are looking for when they have a preconceived notion about how events unfolded.

- Jim

The recent execution in Georgia of a convicted police killer seems to bear this out. As a proponent of the death penalty for capital murder it, bothers me a great deal, when some one is executed under so much doubt.

[GTRich94]

Something in the original story does not add up.

The police apparently claimed that the guy fired through his door and hit a police officer who was standing in the yard. Somehow I doubt that a .380 would be capable of this unless you pressed the gun up against a screen door or something. Also, simple balistics tests on the hole in the door should show where the officer was located when he was hit.

The other thing I thought was odd was that the police kick in the bottom of the door and then, instead of going into the house, decide to go hang out in the yard where one of them gets shot by the person inside the house? That part alone made no sense to me.

[wharvey]

The other thing I thought was odd was that the police kick in the bottom of the door and then, instead of going into the house, decide to go hang out in the yard where one of them gets shot by the person inside the house? That part alone made no sense to me.

When I read this post I went back and re-read the article to see if I'd misread. The article said the officer who was killed was trying to enter the house through the lower panel, not hanging out in the yard. Since you are not the first to say this, I'm I misreading?

[seamusTX]

When I read this post I went back and re-read the article to see if I'd misread. The article said the officer who was killed was trying to enter the house through the lower panel, not hanging out in the yard. Since you are not the first to say this, I'm I misreading?

This is what the article says:

Chesapeake's lawyer, Paul Ebert, said at a recent bond hearing for Frederick that Shivers, the detective who was killed, was in Frederick's yard when he was shot, and that Frederick fired through his door, knowing he was firing at police.

This is possible.

Now, I am making this up as I go along, but bear with me. An officer kicks in the bottom panel of the door and starts to enter. (It's not stated whether he crawled in head-first or stepped through the opening feet-first. Also this entire scenario, either way, does not sound like a typical SWAT entry).

The officer first is presented with two barking dogs, then a guy with a pistol. I would not stay in such a vulnerable position for the sake of confiscating some pot.

Mr. Frederick wakes up and knows only that someone is kicking in his door. He fires either through the remaining door or through the opening.

As for a .380 round going through a door and killing someone, the door was not necessarily solid wood. Many doors have glass in them, which would not slow down a round much.

- Jim

[wharvey]

It's certainly possible it happened that way. There are some people who would shoot through a door out of fear for their own safety. I remember when I was In high school my parents went to play bingo and I was alone. It sounded like someone was trying to break in to the house. I grabbed our shot gun and waited. After no more sounds for several minutes I went outside to check. There were no signs of attempted break in so I guess something was blown over by the wind. My mother through I should have just shot through the door. Thought my father was going to have a stroke when she said that, telling her no uncertain terms that you never shoot through a door.

Either way this happened there were many mistakes made by both parties. With the conflicting stories between witnesses and police I tend to think it was the police who are largely responsible for this going very badly. They do after all have a very large vested interest in this.

This no knock crap in these type of non-violent crimes, as well as militarization of civilian police, need to be stopped or people on both sides will keep dying and community support for police will continue to decrease until what will amounts to state of war exists. I suspect that has almost already happened in some larger communities.

For myself, I use to compete in several shooting sports and there were many police officers there. Most were friendly and very competent. Even shot along side a couple of FBI and ATF folks. I even had some casual friends who were police. That has slowly changed over the years. Police have become more clannish and at least in central KY, where I last compete, were so unsafe in their gun handling it became where I no longer thought it worth it. That may not be the case everywhere but it sure was where I was living.

[seamusTX]

It's certainly possible it happened that way. There are some people who would shoot through a door out of fear for their own safety.

Shooting through a door, especially with a centerfire handgun or rifle, is a very dangerous thing.

However, if you know for a fact that the intruders mean you harm, letting them breach the door reduces your chances of survival to maybe 50%, because now you have a face-to-face gunfight.

There are other options, including looking out a window (depending upon the layout of the house) and taking a covered position in some "fatal funnel" inside the home.

- Jim

[Dave2]

It's certainly possible it happened that way. There are some people who would shoot through a door out of fear for their own safety.

Shooting through a door, especially with a centerfire handgun or rifle, is a very dangerous thing.

Dangerous for the gunman, or dangerous for everyone else? And why does centerfire make a difference?

[seamusTX]

Dangerous for the gunman, or dangerous for everyone else? And why does centerfire make a difference?

First, it's dangerous because the bullet can end up anywhere, including in a passing car or neighboring house, or injure an unintended victim.

Then it's dangerous for the shooter who could be looking at a criminal charge or lawsuit.

I mentioned the ammunition/weapon type because the preceding message had mentioned a shotgun. I don't recommend shooting through doors, period (though this is a decision to be made under a particular set of circumstances). If it is necessary, a shotgun has less chance of a projectile traveling far and hitting an unintended target.

Even then, buckshot can be dangerous out to 100 yards.

- Jim

[doc540]

dogs bark

door sounds like it's being breached

our plan is to go to a defensive area, barricade, call 911

shoot as absolute last defensive resort

NOT advance toward a breached door

Event described by OP is just a bad, bad deal all around. :(

[TEX]

No knock warrants should be banned - period. They have done more harm than good over the years. It is my belief that about 90% of them are unneeded and in the 10% where they are, there should be a crap load of hoops to jump through to get one. We need to get away from this whole LEO and paramilitary mindset and get back Peace Officers. The poicle department screwed this up and someone within their organization is responsible WHOLEY for the officers death. What a miscarriage of justice.

[tacticool]

Now, I am making this up as I go along, but bear with me. An officer kicks in the bottom panel of the door and starts to enter. (It's not stated whether he crawled in head-first or stepped through the opening feet-first. Also this entire scenario, either way, does not sound like a typical SWAT entry).

It looks like a criminal breaking in. The homeowner should have been no billed.

[gigag04]

What's a "typical" SWAT entry?

[tacticool]

[seamusTX]

What's a "typical" SWAT entry?

I don't know how often this is done, but they either kick the entire door in, open it with pry bars, or use a battering ram.

Crawling through one broken panel just sounds wrong. It's a very vulnerable position.

- Jim