Cooler heads did not prevail w/me today. (no gun)

[pcgizzmo]

So, I took my car to get it washed today. I was hungry so I walked across a 4 lane rd to go get a hamburger while I waited. On my way back while walking across the road I see a white car in the lane I'm walking across. No biggie. I will be out of the lane and on the grass before it get's to me. Well, just as I'm walking out of the last lane and putting my foot on the grass I hear a car honk and look up an this car is swerving and coming at me. I have time to focus and in the car are three high school age boy's with giant grins on their face laughing.

At this point I'm mad. I wanted to #1 get a plate # and #2 talk w/them and #3 put a little fear and respect in them if at all possible.

Lo and behold I see them sitting in a left turn lane with their right blinker on. They must have started to turn left and changed their mind so they had to wait for all the traffic to pass before they could get away. So, I pulled up in front of them in the turn lane. Slammed on my breaks and hopped out. There eyes looked like they had seen a ghost. I'm sure they were sitting a few inches higher also. I told the driver to come see me. Needless to say he backed up and drove away. I tried to follow them but they were long gone through a neighborhood.

So, my escalation skills went out the door. I blew a gasket although there is no way I would have laid a finger on them unless they would have come at me. I was mad but in control enough to know I didn't plan on hurting them. Then I wonder would it have been self defense if they would have attacked me? If I didn't lay a hand on them but only wanted to yell at them for acting like they were going to hit me am I really provoking?

I didn't have my gun on me but what if I would have pulled and fired when they swerved to hit me? I'm sure it would have been hard to prove in court that they intended to hit me. Even if I had it on me I would not have pulled it because once I saw there face I knew they were kids playing but what if they weren't?

Anyway, it's all over and I'm hopeful they will think twice about swerving at a pedestrian again.

[johnson0317]

You could not have proven they meant to hit you. What if you did have your gun with you? What if all three jumped out of the truck with bats in their hands? The fact that you actually initiated contact would really work against you if you drew your weapon, or actually fired it. These kids were total jerks, but would it have been worth the hole in their mother's hearts to teach them the lesson that might have been taught?

RJ

[Skiprr]

Very poor decision making, IMHO. I understand sudden reactions, but to run to your car, give chase, and then brake in front of the other vehicle was a conscious decision, and things could have gone much worse than they did.

Then I wonder would it have been self defense if they would have attacked me? If I didn't lay a hand on them but only wanted to yell at them for acting like they were going to hit me am I really provoking?

I'm not an attorney, but in IMHO chasing them, pulling in front of them and blocking them, then getting out of your car was more than enough to throw any defense to prosecution under PC Chapter 9 out the window. You didn't need to get to the point of yelling at them to do that. PC §9.32(b)(2) doesn't describe the extent of provocation, simply that "The actor's belief under Subsection (a)(2) that the deadly force was immediately necessary as described by that subdivision is presumed to be reasonable if the actor...did not provoke the person against whom the force was used..."

You've got the "reasonable man" standard here: any type of action that a reasonable man (or jury) would view as provocation removes your defense to prosecution. And from what you described, you were alone in your car and there were three witnesses to the provocation in the other car. There may have been other witnesses at that stoplight. So, yeah: pulling in front of the other car and slamming on the brakes to block them, then getting out of your car to confront them would seem to me to be overt provocation. If a third party had been sitting at the light at that intersection and saw your maneuver, I would think their statement to the police would be that you were unquestionably the aggressor.

I'm glad it all worked out okay, but as a cautionary tale for others: this was not a good move.

[apostate]

So, my escalation skills went out the door. I blew a gasket although there is no way I would have laid a finger on them unless they would have come at me. I was mad but in control enough to know I didn't plan on hurting them. Then I wonder would it have been self defense if they would have attacked me?

It sounds like your escalation skills were working. Nonviolent dispute resolution on the other hand...

It's good to remember 9.31.(b)(4) from the Texas Penal Code. "The use of force against another is not justified [...] if the actor provoked the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force"

[Skiprr]

So, my escalation skills went out the door. I blew a gasket although there is no way I would have laid a finger on them unless they would have come at me. I was mad but in control enough to know I didn't plan on hurting them. Then I wonder would it have been self defense if they would have attacked me?

It sounds like your escalation skills were working. Nonviolent dispute resolution on the other hand...

It's good to remember 9.31.(b)(4) from the Texas Penal Code. "The use of force against another is not justified [...] if the actor provoked the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force"

Yep. To clarify for casual readers PC §9.31 deals with self-defense and use of force in general, and PC §9.32 deals with deadly force in defense of a person.

[jocat54]

Well sounds like you messed up--but--
Why didn't you have your gun with you!

[A-R]

OP took some very dangerous and ill-advised actions here. You need to seriously rethink your response/reactions and if you think you can control yourself enough to carry a gun. If something physical HAD occured you'd be in very hot water right now, because YOU instigated the confrontation.

Look at it from their perspective (or the perspective they'd likely tell the responding officer) ... "we were sitting at the light when this guy stopped his truck, blocking us in, got out of his car yelling at us and telling me to get out of the car, when his shirt blew up and I saw the pistol on his belt, I got scared. That's when I hit the gas and ran over him, officer. It was self defense."

Or, as others have mentioned, if they confronted you and you were "forced" to use force/deadly force in response, you would appear to be the aggressor because you instigated the confrontation.

[Liberty]

No harm done and a lesson learned, The OP is a little smarter today.
All and all a positive experience.

[nyj]

You're not a cop, it is not within your right to pull someone out of their car and 'have a talk with them.' If they're old enough to drive, they're adults. Would you have done the same to a 350lb man?

Your ego...it's high.

[speedsix]

...tonight before you sleep, look at your wife and kids, and thank God you're with 'em...and pray for wisdom...He can change what needs changed in us...wonder how I know...

[goheeled]

Wow.

[thatguy]

...tonight before you sleep, look at your wife and kids, and thank God you're with 'em...and pray for wisdom...He can change what needs changed in us...wonder how I know...

Amen...

[Excaliber]

Very poor decision making, IMHO. I understand sudden reactions, but to run to your car, give chase, and then brake in front of the other vehicle was a conscious decision, and things could have gone much worse than they did.

Then I wonder would it have been self defense if they would have attacked me? If I didn't lay a hand on them but only wanted to yell at them for acting like they were going to hit me am I really provoking?

I'm not an attorney, but in IMHO chasing them, pulling in front of them and blocking them, then getting out of your car was more than enough to throw any defense to prosecution under PC Chapter 9 out the window. You didn't need to get to the point of yelling at them to do that. PC §9.32(b)(2) doesn't describe the extent of provocation, simply that "The actor's belief under Subsection (a)(2) that the deadly force was immediately necessary as described by that subdivision is presumed to be reasonable if the actor...did not provoke the person against whom the force was used..."

You've got the "reasonable man" standard here: any type of action that a reasonable man (or jury) would view as provocation removes your defense to prosecution. And from what you described, you were alone in your car and there were three witnesses to the provocation in the other car. There may have been other witnesses at that stoplight. So, yeah: pulling in front of the other car and slamming on the brakes to block them, then getting out of your car to confront them would seem to me to be overt provocation. If a third party had been sitting at the light at that intersection and saw your maneuver, I would think their statement to the police would be that you were unquestionably the aggressor.

I'm glad it all worked out okay, but as a cautionary tale for others: this was not a good move.

This post could be reasonably described as a study in how to turn a very minor incident into something that could ruin the rest of one's life.

The concept that it's OK to intentionally place others in fear of an implied threat of violence to "teach them a lesson" or repay a perceived affront of some type can be found at the beginning of a whole host of incidents that went horribly wrong when they spun out of control in ways the original actor couldn't have predicted.

The OP would do well to do some serious soul searching on this. It is unlikely he will keep faring as well as he did here if this pattern of behavior is continued in the future.

[stroguy]

FAIL

If I was the father of the boy that did that he would be getting a royal reaming. You though, sir, would be getting far worse from me. Taking the law into your own hands for this situation was asking for trouble.

[wgoforth]

Ever heard of the monkey dance?