Customer Killed During Robbery- (BODY ARMOR QUESTION)

[Lucky45]

GALVESTON, Texas -- A customer was killed as he walked into a Galveston store during a robbery Thursday morning, officials told KPRC Local 2.
Galveston police said the shooting happened at Luke's Little Supermarket and Deli in the 8200 block of Stewart Road at about 6:45 a.m.
Investigators said the two masked men were leaving the store when the customer walked in.
One of the men was armed with a gun and fatally shot the customer, police said. "He just happened to be walking up at a bad time. He opened the door not realizing they had just robbed the place -- shot him three times for no reason at all," storeowner A.R. Lucas said. Lucas said the victim, identified as 38-year-old Carlos Baeza, was a regular customer who often stopped in for a morning cup of coffee before heading to work at a construction site.
"Some of his buddies were in the pickup truck right here in front and watched the whole thing happen and said that (the robbers) did not take their masks off, so there's no reason for them to be in fear of him(identifying) them," Lucas said.
Two schools were placed on lockdown after the getaway car was found nearby.
A Galveston Independent School District spokeswoman said Oppe Elementary and Weis Middle schools were placed on lockdown at about 9:20 a.m.
The lockdown order was lifted at about 11 a.m. Police have no clues as to the robbers' identity or whereabouts. Anyone with information is asked to contact Crime Stoppers at 713-222-TIPS. Friends said Baeza was working to raise money for his wife and four children in Mexico. He also has a brother in Galveston.

My question is how many of the forum members wear body armor? Not just owning a vest, but actually wearing it?

[txinvestigator]

GALVESTON, Texas -- A customer was killed as he walked into a Galveston store during a robbery Thursday morning, officials told KPRC Local 2.
Galveston police said the shooting happened at Luke's Little Supermarket and Deli in the 8200 block of Stewart Road at about 6:45 a.m.
Investigators said the two masked men were leaving the store when the customer walked in.
One of the men was armed with a gun and fatally shot the customer, police said. "He just happened to be walking up at a bad time. He opened the door not realizing they had just robbed the place -- shot him three times for no reason at all," storeowner A.R. Lucas said. Lucas said the victim, identified as 38-year-old Carlos Baeza, was a regular customer who often stopped in for a morning cup of coffee before heading to work at a construction site.
"Some of his buddies were in the pickup truck right here in front and watched the whole thing happen and said that (the robbers) did not take their masks off, so there's no reason for them to be in fear of him(identifying) them," Lucas said.
Two schools were placed on lockdown after the getaway car was found nearby.
A Galveston Independent School District spokeswoman said Oppe Elementary and Weis Middle schools were placed on lockdown at about 9:20 a.m.
The lockdown order was lifted at about 11 a.m. Police have no clues as to the robbers' identity or whereabouts. Anyone with information is asked to contact Crime Stoppers at 713-222-TIPS. Friends said Baeza was working to raise money for his wife and four children in Mexico. He also has a brother in Galveston.

My question is how many of the forum members wear body armor? Not just owning a vest, but actually wearing it?

I own and wear level 3A, but not daily. I wear it for ALL Personal Protection assignments and whenever training. How should I vote?

[Lucky45]

Hey Txi,
I meant basically that you make a concious effort to wear it when feasible. There might be some people that just have it for show and tell. So basically if you have worn it in a regular everyday outing would qualify. It does not have to be daily. A run to the store, groceries, mall, etc, all qualify. So you do qualify.

There might be people that work in high risk jobs that should consider wearing body armor. Store clerks, Bank and Postal employees, etc.
Also, if you do wear body armor, maybe you can talk about your experience. As this incident might be an example of why one might consider body armor.

[txinvestigator]

I don't wear it for day to day living. I think that is extreme. Yes, the guy in the store was shot doing day-to-day things, but it is just as likely a bus will hit you while walking.

I wore everytime I had my police uniform on, and I wore when I worked the range, especially teaching firearms classes.

[Lucky45]

I have actually been considering getting a concealable body armor vest. Been looking at all the different selection and would need to have one sized to fit. Not just, M, L, XL, etc. Just trying to find one with good protection and not too bulky where it is noticeable.

If I could find that vest, I would wear it daily. For me, it is not about paranoia, but have CHL and just adding another layer of protection.

[Mithras61]

I don't wear one, but have kicked the thought around. I keep coming back to Dragon Skin as being the most likely candidate. Has anyone heard anything bad about them?

[Will938]

There are "reports" of them failing "tests". No one knows exactly what these tests are, so most of it is blown off as bias.

That and it costs like $5000 if I'm not mistaken versus $300-$800 for regular bodyarmor.

[KBCraig]

I seldom even wear our III-A vests at work. Unlike street cops, our most likely threat of a gunshot will come from someone who walks up casually and shoots the officer in the head.

They don't make effective armor for that. At least not that will let you do your job.

Kevin

[Mithras61]

There are "reports" of them failing "tests". No one knows exactly what these tests are, so most of it is blown off as bias.

That and it costs like $5000 if I'm not mistaken versus $300-$800 for regular bodyarmor.

I'm curious about the reports. The only one I saw was that the US Army called off the tests in mid-session & failed the armor when the Pinnacle Armor guys wouldn't get into a discussion of how their armor is constructed (it's patented & was developed without government $). Is there another report that I'm unaware of?

As to cost versus regular body armor, they have demonstrated a much higher level of flexibility & concealability than standard body armor. If BG can tell you have on body armor, they'll just aim for the head. Is it worth more to have better body armor concealment?

[G.C.Montgomery]

As of yet, I don't own any body armor. No, I'm not one of the cool guys. However; everytime I work a public range I reconsider the purchase of body armor. I will probably buy an "instructor's vest" at some point in the near future simply because it's usually when teaching that some idiot points a gun at me. My life, as weird and exciting as it's been, doesn't generally warrant the hassles or expense of body armor for daily wear. The chances of getting shot are pretty low. And even if I get shot, there's a very high probability I'll survive it whether I've got on body armor or not.

The incident in Galveston is an extreme case and a horrible examle of your number simply being up. As TXI said, they guy could have just as easily been nailed by a bus. As a matter of fact, as someone who routinely works in downtown Houston, I'm FAR more likely to be killed a bus or luxury car than by a bullet fired by a robber, my wife or anyone else. So no, I don't wear body armor in general.

[Lucky45]

The chances of getting shot are pretty low. And even if I get shot, there's a very high probability I'll survive it whether I've got on body armor or not.

hey G.C.Montgomery,
I think that is wishful thinking. (optimistic at best) I could take that attitude with car insurance too. The way I drive, I don't need it. But someday someone might hit my car unexpectedly.

The incident in Galveston is an extreme case and a horrible examle of your number simply being up.

There is no such thing as EXTREME. The fact that the world is not utopia, then everyone should EXPECT that someday they might be confronted by some sort of danger.

[txinvestigator]

The chances of getting shot are pretty low. And even if I get shot, there's a very high probability I'll survive it whether I've got on body armor or not.

hey G.C.Montgomery,
I think that is wishful thinking. (optimistic at best) I could take that attitude with car insurance too. The way I drive, I don't need it. But someday someone might hit my car unexpectedly.

The incident in Galveston is an extreme case and a horrible examle of your number simply being up.

There is no such thing as EXTREME. The fact that the world is not utopia, then everyone should EXPECT that someday they might be confronted by some sort of danger.

Sure there is. But if you are so afraid of being randomly shot I suggest you either move, or don't leave the house.

But if you want to wear armor, go ahead.


I don't understand why people ask for opinions, then argue with those opinions.

[G.C.Montgomery]

The chances of getting shot are pretty low. And even if I get shot, there's a very high probability I'll survive it whether I've got on body armor or not.

hey G.C.Montgomery,
I think that is wishful thinking. (optimistic at best) I could take that attitude with car insurance too. The way I drive, I don't need it. But someday someone might hit my car unexpectedly.

Wishful thinking? Dude, in Harris County we almost shoot people for fun. Have you any idea how many people are admitted, treated and released from Ben Taub and LBJ hospitals on Friday and Saturday night for GSWs?

Ask ANY ER surgeon and they will tell you that something on the high side of 85% of all handgun GSW patients WALK out of the hospital the same day they are admitted. Another 10% or so might require extended treatment requiring a longer stay and then there’s a smaller percentage that die mostly because they leaked too much before they could get medical treatment. Yes, there are the CNS hits, shredded aortas, carotids and vena cava but these aren't the majority.

I'll also submit that rifle and shotgun wound survivability is much lower but still, the key to surviving GSW's generally remains controlling the bleeding and getting expert medical treatment. It's hard NOT to find expert medical treatment for GSWs in the Houston/Galveston area. So, the probability of survival for most of us living in the city remains pretty high. After being shot, if you are alive, alert and animated; chances are pretty high you'll survive.

The incident in Galveston is an extreme case and a horrible example of your number simply being up.

There is no such thing as EXTREME. The fact that the world is not utopia, then everyone should EXPECT that someday they might be confronted by some sort of danger.

Yeah there is such a thing. Most who know me, think my life has been an extreme 31 years. Make no mistake, I've never believed in any sort of Utopia. By the time I graduated high school, I'd been targeted in three drive by shootings, defeated a home invader, assaulted no less than eight times and had a knife put to my throat by someone I thought was a friend. It was a very rough four years. College included a motorcycle accident at over 160mph, an attempted stabbing, a bungled car burglary and a bomb threat at school. The things I’ve witnessed or otherwise been involved with as someone not involved in law enforcement boggle even my mind. Still, I manage to go through the day without expecting to die of anything other than old age or possibly cancer. Why? Because I’m STILL here!

Can you be confronted with danger, violence and just plain bad luck? Of course, but I’m not going to live in fear of it and I don’t believe things are dangerous enough to warrant the hassles of wearing body armor everyday. People don’t walk into grocery stores with AK’s everyday as happened with this robbery. When it becomes common for terrorist cells to show up at malls and schools and spray 70-100 rounds in full auto at anything that moves, it’s probably time to consider wearing body armor daily. But we aren’t there yet. YMMV.

Edited to add: For what it's worth, the only armor that would have saved the man killed yesterday, assuming a upper body wound, would have been Level III or higher with rifle plates or rigid, Level IV ceramic armor. None of that stuff is concealable or practical to wear everyday. At least not yet. I hope things never get to the point we need to wear Level Iv armor every day.

[fm2]

Not a daily wearer either.

[Lucky45]

I don't understand why people ask for opinions, then argue with those opinions.

Alright TXi, Where did you see me arguing?
Only comment I have made was

Also, if you do wear body armor, maybe you can talk about your experience. quote] I know there are some in here that put whatever you say on a very high pedestal, I don't. You make many valid points in discussions, but don't think you are the ORACLE. I'm not it's my way or the highway kinda guy. It says CHL DISCUSSION above.

For someone to imply that they are some sort of superhuman and if they get shot that they will survive it wearing body armor or not, is wishful thinking. I'm not apologetic about it. That is what I was getting at. People die from a single bee sting and there are plenty of hospitals around.

Now look at GC's statements.

After being shot, if you are alive, alert and animated; chances are pretty high you'll survive.

What happened to

the key to surviving GSW's generally remains controlling the bleeding and getting expert medical treatment.