Should Schools Be "Prohibited Places"?

[gdanaher]

[quote="74novaman"
As to concealment....with proper dress, a good holster and a good belt, my own wife doesn't know if I'm carrying or not.

It's not your wife we are talking about here. It's that 14 year old in the second row.

So no tongue in cheek at all. I absolutely believe you can conceal a gun without letting a bunch of kinds know about it if you're prudent with how you dress and carry, and don't go blabbing to people that you're carrying. It truly is that simple.[/quote]

Seriously, between friends, have you ever been employed in any capacity that placed you in a public school classroom with students present? You could put a P238 securely in your anus, and that 14 yo in the second row would know about it inside of 5 minutes. To say that kids are observant is a massive understatement. Everything gets noticed. Everything.

[74novaman]

You keep snipping out parts of my comments and going after other parts with hypothetical, unprovable arguments.

Would you care to respond as to how you think banning CHLs from carrying in school will prevent "bad guys"?

[Scott in Houston]

As to concealment....with proper dress, a good holster and a good belt, my own wife doesn't know if I'm carrying or not.

It's not your wife we are talking about here. It's that 14 year old in the second row.

So no tongue in cheek at all. I absolutely believe you can conceal a gun without letting a bunch of kinds know about it if you're prudent with how you dress and carry, and don't go blabbing to people that you're carrying. It truly is that simple.

Seriously, between friends, have you ever been employed in any capacity that placed you in a public school classroom with students present? You could put a P238 securely in your anus, and that 14 yo in the second row would know about it inside of 5 minutes. To say that kids are observant is a massive understatement. Everything gets noticed. Everything.

I've spent entire weekends on overnight retreats with loads of kids, and never been close to spotted. I think you're over reacting a bit.

[fickman]

You have never been in a classroom other than as a student and it shows.

Wrong.

Not only have I spent time as a guest speaker in classrooms on many occasions, I have lived in the classroom from every perspective. I mentioned my wife is also a CHLer, has spent years teaching high school math, AND shares my viewpoint on this topic. She could have easily written my post and proves that your point is without merit.

For a little background, here's some of my immediate connections to the classroom:
Wife - public high school
Sister - public middle school (10+ years)
Mom - public elementary school (30+ years)
Mother-in-law - public elementary and middle school (30+ years)
Father-in-law - public middle school, public ISD school board, and community college (20+ years)
Aunt - public high school (30+ years)
Aunt - public elementary teacher and principal (40+ year)
Aunt - owns a private school
Aunt - public elementary school (15+ years)

This is not to mention dozens of close friends, neighbors, and slightly more distant relatives who are educators at all grade levels in diverse districts from affluent to urban.

The arrogance in your assumption is matched only by the degree to which you were incorrect.

[gdanaher]

We will never agree on this issue. I have had parents in the school with weapons, and yes, a couple students through the years, and their intent was to harm. No harm was done, and we all felt lucky.

Most school boards would reject the concept because it is easier to deal with a disaster post facto than it would be to explain to parents why their teachers are armed.

The kids you deal with on a camping retreat aren't the same kids I have dealt with. If you can't stand in my shoes I understand. And your views are fashioned by your experience, as are mine. Sorry we must disagree on this one, but take a step back and ask yourself if your own local board would vote to allow teachers to be armed. If you are realistic, the likely answer is no, but go ahead and talk to those folks and see if you can turn some heads.

[74novaman]

We will never agree on this issue. I have had parents in the school with weapons, and yes, a couple students through the years, and their intent was to harm. No harm was done, and we all felt lucky.

So, I'm assuming your school had policies against those weapoons being brought on campus, correct? How'd that work out for everybody?

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results.


Again, I'd like you to answer the question I posed earlier that you ignored.


How you think banning CHLs from carrying in school will prevent "bad guys" from carrying?

[fickman]

Most school boards would reject the concept because it is easier to deal with a disaster post facto than it would be to explain to parents why their teachers are armed.

I'm not disagreeing with you on that point. Just like most college administrators don't want firearms on campus. I've found that even people who espouse to be conservative in the suburbs and give lip service to being pro-2nd Amendment can suddenly start backtracking when people they know first start purchasing guns.

The Anti's have done a great job changing our presuppositions and distorting our worldview on this topic in the last 130 years.

We need legislators to make the decision for them so that the local Boards and administrators can't deny our rights to self defense and preservation.

To me, the case doesn't even hinge on protecting the room full of students from an armed assault, although that is a valid scenario. The argument boils down to that point in time where an innocent person is looking down the barrel of a gun or at the blade of a knife and has no means to protect themselves. In that moment, it is immoral to deny that person their own self defense, especially when they have the means and have undergone the scrutiny to earn that right a mere 100 feet away from where they're standing. It's perverse to tell a victim - in that moment - that the police will do a great forensic search and find their killer after the fact.

Gun free zones enforced by signs or policy documents don't work. They never will.

[fickman]

One more quick note, if the "14 year old in the second row" is that dangerous, and I have no doubt he or she could be. I have a friend who only lasted a few weeks as a teacher at Everman High School because he felt personally threatened and unsafe after several unbelievable situations I'll not go into.

Guess what? If that hypothetical 14 year old is that much of a threat, he/she is a threat regardless of whether or not the teacher is concealed carrying. The likelihood that we've seen throughout history is that he or she can get their hands on a firearm somehow, some way, without overpowering a teacher with physical assault. In fact, that might be the very threat from which the teacher needs to defend his/her life.

Any teacher who left an unsecured, unattended firearm accessible to students would be guilty of a serious crime, just like any of us with our own kids. I advocate a strong reminder to teachers and faculty who carry - in this hypothetical - to make sure they carry on their person.

I'll also agree with you that they would need to be responsible in their concealment. The "well, it bulges but doesn't clearly print" standard probably isn't sufficient. The teacher is the focal point for all of those eyes all day, but that doesn't mean concealment is impossible or that this is a roadblock worthy of disarming the entire law-abiding CHL community. That logic breaks down really fast or ends up being a case for a nationwide firearm ban in all arenas. A challenge or hurdle isn't a game-stopper.

Dozens of options could work: pocket carry of a J-Frame in pleated slacks, ankle carry with slacks / jeans, tactical undershirt, deep concealment methods. . . many of these are COMPLETELY INDISCERNIBLE even while moving and stretching in any direction or through social physical contact.

[troglodyte]

Seriously, between friends, have you ever been employed in any capacity that placed you in a public school classroom with students present? You could put a P238 securely in your anus, and that 14 yo in the second row would know about it inside of 5 minutes. To say that kids are observant is a massive understatement. Everything gets noticed. Everything.

Yes I have. As a matter of fact I just got home from spending 8 hours with them. Just as I have for the last 26 years. I could easily hide my XD9SC and not be found out. And I'm not a desk jockey. I'm up with my kids all the time.

Your exagerations keep getting more elaborate as you try to make your point. Prison movies? Coiled rattlesnake in the closet? P238 securely in your anus? (and personally I take offense at the reference.)

Since you seem to think none of us have any idea what goes on in a school, and I haven't seen any of your credentials, I will happlily post mine.

26 years in education. BSEd, MS Secondary Science
12 years in Public education (3 ISDs), 14 in Private education - Grades (7-12)
Adjunct college professor 3 years
I have worked numerous camps most of these years...and not all of them were "church" camps.

And as for secondhand experiences my wife's resume would closely mirror mine with elem. kids.

Two children - One college grad (married), and one a Sr. in HS.

Now that may not make me any more or less "qualified" than you but don't assume you have a corner on the education market around here.

Please do not presume to tell me about the kids in schools. I have seen, and taught, them all. Just because you feel you can't pull off conceal carry in school don't try to force the rest of us to believe we can't or shouldn't.

I've heard all the "But what if" scenarios. They hold just about as much water as "but it can't/won't happen here". If nobody is guarding the chicken house, the wolf will come. Bless the Resource Officiers, but most schools don't have them and they will likely be the first target (Red Lake, MN - granted they were not armed).

On the other hand, if CHL faculty, staff, and parents could carry think of all the potential for deterent without a shot being fired. Statewide schools are opened up to CHL carry. If the populations hold true that means 1 in 50 faculty, staff, and could be carrying (or 1 in 100 if you want to go with 50% of CHLs carrying). How many COULD that be at your kid's school. Shooters don't want confrontation, they want bodies. If they had any inkling of suspicion that there is a CHL on staff, dropping off their kid, or having a parent/teacher conference they might, and I recognize they might not, just decide it's not worth it. A shot may never have to be fired and we have kept our kids safer.

Now I understand there is not guarantee, either way, but I think our kids, and ourselves, are worth protecting.

[troglodyte]

Guess what? If that hypothetical 14 year old is that much of a threat, he/she is a threat regardless of whether or not the teacher is concealed carrying. The likelihood that we've seen throughout history is that he or she can get their hands on a firearm somehow, some way, without overpowering a teacher with physical assault. In fact, that might be the very threat from which the teacher needs to defend his/her life.

Why overpower the teacher when this hypothetical 14 year old probably has a hypothetical gun at home or can get one from his brother or gang?

[74novaman]

Yes I have. As a matter of fact I just got home from spending 8 hours with them. Just as I have for the last 26 years. I could easily hide my XD9SC and not be found out. And I'm not a desk jockey. I'm up with my kids all the time.

Your exagerations keep getting more elaborate as you try to make your point. Prison movies? Coiled rattlesnake in the closet? P238 securely in your anus? (and personally I take offense at the reference.)


Please do not presume to tell me about the kids in schools. I have seen, and taught, them all. Just because you feel you can't pull off conceal carry in school don't try to force the rest of us to believe we can't or shouldn't.


Now I understand there is not guarantee, either way, but I think our kids, and ourselves, are worth protecting.

Outstanding post. I hoped you would get around to responding.

[Beiruty]

There is a crazy scenario that did come to my mind regarding CC at schools.
Let us say CC is allowed at high schools.
Let us say a teacher for grade 10/11 was outed by the his students.
Let us say a bunch of teens decided to be in a "click" and decided on crazy idea:
Gang on the CHLer teacher and try to disarm him and run away with his "piece"
Let us say the teacher preempted the attack and pulled his CC in self-defense.
Let us say the teens do not back off, on order from their teacher and decided to blow off his threat of shooting.
Let us say that the CHLer teacher feared losing control of his "piece" and opened fire killing and wounding many of assailants kids.

The liberals will have a field day press against CC in TX!

[74novaman]

Your exagerations keep getting more elaborate as you try to make your point. Prison movies? Coiled rattlesnake in the closet? P238 securely in your anus? (and personally I take offense at the reference.)

Regarding his last hypothetical, I seem to remember another person who alluded that gun owners should store firearms there.

What was his name.....oh! That's it. Richard Daly, former Chicago mayor and noted anti gun activist.

Maybe they're on the same wavelength?

[74novaman]

There is a crazy scenario that did come to my mind regarding CC at schools.
Let us say CC is allowed at high schools.
Let us say a teacher for grade 10/11 was outed by the his students.
Let us say a bunch of teens decided to be in a "click" and decided on crazy idea:
Gang on the CHLer teacher and try to disarm him and run away with his "piece"
Let us say the teacher preempted the attack and pulled his CC in self-defense.
Let us say the teens do not back off, on order from their teacher and decided to blow off his threat of shooting.
Let us say that the CHLer teacher feared losing control of his "piece" and opened fire killing and wounding many of assailants kids.

The liberals will have a field day press against CC in TX!

And what if the moon crashes into the earth?

Or what if space aliens invade?

Those hypothetical are about as useful as the one you posed. Its just silliness. Engaging in what if games is pointless, and someones what ifs over what might happen shouldn't negate my right to protect my life due to the location. period.

[Beiruty]

Novaman,

I am not saying that we should deny CHLer carrying at schools. However, there are consequences to allowing that. For one thing, teens are not mature and sometime are irrational in their behavior.