Another Scenario. Please help.

[NguyenVanDon]

Me and a friend were talking and got confused on this subject. Here's the story...

I'm a CHL holder and armed. I am walking inside a hospital to visit a friend that is sick. As I get near the entrance, I see the 30.06 sign posted. I ignored it and just walked straight in. I get into the elevator and make my way up to the 12th floor. I get out and walk straight down the hallway. I see a crazy man running towards me in a striking position with a knife and he gets closer about 15 - 20 feet.

- Am I'm allowed to pull out my handgun and shoot him?
- Am I'm breaking any law?

Me and my friend were told by our CHL instructor that we are allowed to shoot him and the 30.06 sign would not affect us anymore.

- Is this also true?

[Mike1951]

You would be in violation of 46.035 (b)(4) because you would have been given notice as specified in subsection (i).

§ 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE

b) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun
under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,
regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the
license holder's person:

(4) on the premises of a hospital licensed under
Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, or on the premises of a nursing
home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety Code, unless the
license holder has written authorization of the hospital or nursing
home administration, as appropriate;

(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply
if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.

The defense to prosecution contained below does not appear to apply to subsection (b).

(h) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a) that
the actor, at the time of the commission of the offense, displayed
the handgun under circumstances in which the actor would have been
justified in the use of deadly force under Chapter 9.

I going to say something here that you may think is out of line. But this post following your first postings here make it seem like you are preoccupied with getting to shoot someone.

We all imagine scenarios and try to plan what we would do and that is healthy. But all here would rather walk away from a situation with no shots fired.

I for one would feel a lot more comfortable if you didn't appear so anxious to shoot.

[nuparadigm]

.... this post following your first postings here make it seem like you are preoccupied with getting to shoot someone.

We all imagine scenarios and try to plan what we would do and that is healthy. But all here would rather walk away from a situation with no shots fired.

I for one would feel a lot more comfortable if you didn't appear so anxious to shoot.

Make that two.

[KRM45]

Me and a friend were talking and got confused on this subject. Here's the story...

I'm a CHL holder and armed. I am walking inside a hospital to visit a friend that is sick. As I get near the entrance, I see the 30.06 sign posted. I ignored it and just walked straight in. I get into the elevator and make my way up to the 12th floor. I get out and walk straight down the hallway. I see a crazy man running towards me in a striking position with a knife and he gets closer about 15 - 20 feet.

- Am I'm allowed to pull out my handgun and shoot him?
- Am I'm breaking any law?

Me and my friend were told by our CHL instructor that we are allowed to shoot him and the 30.06 sign would not affect us anymore.

- Is this also true?

I believe you would still be justified in defending yourself even though you are in violation of the criminal tresspass statute.

IMHO you would go to jail that night for the Class A misdemeanor.

[RPBrown]

Me and a friend were talking and got confused on this subject. Here's the story...

I'm a CHL holder and armed. I am walking inside a hospital to visit a friend that is sick. As I get near the entrance, I see the 30.06 sign posted. I ignored it and just walked straight in. I get into the elevator and make my way up to the 12th floor. I get out and walk straight down the hallway. I see a crazy man running towards me in a striking position with a knife and he gets closer about 15 - 20 feet.

- Am I'm allowed to pull out my handgun and shoot him?
- Am I'm breaking any law?

Me and my friend were told by our CHL instructor that we are allowed to shoot him and the 30.06 sign would not affect us anymore.

- Is this also true?

I believe you would still be justified in defending yourself even though you are in violation of the criminal tresspass statute.

IMHO you would go to jail that night for the Class A misdemeanor.

And if convicted, lose your CHL.

[HankB]

IANAL, but in the circumstances you describe, something called "the doctrine of competing harms" may come into play . . . as I understand it, this means that breaking the law may sometimes be used as a defense in court if failure to break the law could result in greater harm. So maybe your breaking the PC30.06 law prevented the crazed madman from hurting more people.

One problem with using this defense in your scenario is that when you decided to break the law by ignoring a compliant PC30.06 sign at the hospital entrance, you had NO IDEA that there was a knife-wielding crazy up on the 12th floor, so the DA would probably argue that you weren't breaking the law in order to prevent a greater harm, you were breaking the law just because you felt like it.

Again, IANAL, but in court, based on the parts of the law already posted above, I think it likely you'd be found not guilty of anything for shooting the knife-wielding crazy in self-defense, but stand a good chance of conviction for carrying where notice was given.

Here's another thought . . . if this happened after Sept 1 2007, the Castle Doctrine law might not protect you from civil action, as it requires that YOU not be breaking the law . . . and by ignoring a PC30.06 sign, you might lose that civil protection.

(If my non-lawyer's take on this is in error, I hope a TX attorney can chime in and set me straight . . . )

[txinvestigator]

WOw, several thoughts.

First, in Texas, you are never "allowed" to use deadly force. Using deadly force as justified under the law is a "defense to prosecution". There have been numerous threads about what that means, so I'll just say here that you can be arrested, charged and tried for ANY use of force, and the burden of proof that you met the legal justification is on you

Secondly, you would most likely be justified in using deadly fore to stop the mad man with the knife. The law does not specify what type of deadly force, it seems we always only think of shooting. So if you would be justified in using deadly force, well, shooting someone IS deadly force.

You were still in violation of Texas Penal Code 46.035. Would you be prosecuted for it? I dunno.

I certainly hope that you don't intend to ignore properly posted signs, hoping that you might get to shoot someone.

[stevie_d_64]

Here's another thought . . . if this happened after Sept 1 2007, the Castle Doctrine law might not protect you from civil action, as it requires that YOU not be breaking the law . . . and by ignoring a PC30.06 sign, you might lose that civil protection.

Bingo...Hit the ten ring...You nailed it!!!

Not surprised though...Hank's a pretty smart guy!

Mr. Nguyen, as far as what I have observed in your postings...I'm certainly not going to discourage your inquiries...But as someone else posted about your preoccupation with defining how you would be justified in "shooting" someone...

May I suggest a new tactic...Try exploring ways, reasons, excuses to "not" shoot someone...

I know your intent is to "not" shoot someone in real life, but there are ways to learn things in this community that help you avoid most of these situations you create yourself in...And in the odd chance you may have to defend yourself in real life, well, thats something that I believe you would be prepared very well for in any event...

[fadlan12]

Something else to think about , these threads could be used as evidence if a shooting ever occured and you don't want to sound or look like you a eager to get into a deadly force situation.

[Rex B]

I think we all have some exposure there.
But if we worried about that we'd not have much of a foum, would we? ;)

[NguyenVanDon]

You would be in violation of 46.035 (b)(4) because you would have been given notice as specified in subsection (i).

§ 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE

b) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun
under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,
regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the
license holder's person:

(4) on the premises of a hospital licensed under
Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, or on the premises of a nursing
home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety Code, unless the
license holder has written authorization of the hospital or nursing
home administration, as appropriate;

(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply
if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.

The defense to prosecution contained below does not appear to apply to subsection (b).

(h) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a) that
the actor, at the time of the commission of the offense, displayed
the handgun under circumstances in which the actor would have been
justified in the use of deadly force under Chapter 9.

I going to say something here that you may think is out of line. But this post following your first postings here make it seem like you are preoccupied with getting to shoot someone.

We all imagine scenarios and try to plan what we would do and that is healthy. But all here would rather walk away from a situation with no shots fired.

I for one would feel a lot more comfortable if you didn't appear so anxious to shoot.

I think I mention this before. Putting all moral to aside. I just want to know BY LAW if it is right to defend yourself with deady force.

So a crazy man with a knife in a stabbing position was that close to you, what would do?

[Big_Hitter]

So a crazy man with a knife in a stabbing position was that close to you, what would do?

well I wouldn't be carrying in a hospital so I'd have to retreat, try to smack him with a chair (or something) or kick him in the nads, in that order

[Mike1951]

I think I mention this before. Putting all moral to aside. I just want to know BY LAW if it is right to defend yourself with deady force.

It's not what you ask, it's how you ask it.

Apparently, some other members picked up on it as well.

Suggest you take a hard look at how you express your scenarios when you want feedback.

Your first postings were more telling than this one. You kept redefining the scenario looking for justification to shoot someone over a wallet.

You can get excellent info here and get answers to most scenarios. Just try not to sound quite as trigger happy.

So a crazy man with a knife in a stabbing position was that close to you, what would do?

At the 15-20' you specified, everyone gets bloodied.

[kauboy]

IANAL, but in the circumstances you describe, something called "the doctrine of competing harms" may come into play . . . as I understand it, this means that breaking the law may sometimes be used as a defense in court if failure to break the law could result in greater harm. So maybe your breaking the PC30.06 law prevented the crazed madman from hurting more people.

I have to take issue to this line of reasoning. The "doctrine" that you refer to would apply if you, being armed, entered a properly posted hospital to retreat from a knife wielding mad man or similar dangerous scenario. The other way around would show that you knowingly broke the law before knowing about a dangerous situation that may require you to break another law.


And to Nguyen, I would seriously consider attending another class with a better instructor. He's fed you misconceptions of the law that could end up leaving you in jail for a long time.

[Wildscar]

I work in a hospital setting and I tell ya if something like this happened. There's enough junk around that you wouldn't have a problem finding something to throw at this guy coming in your general direction. Anything from IV pumps to Patient charts to an empty rolling wheel chair or patient bed or bed pan to make him trip over. Hell pull the pin on a fire extinguisher and let him have it. If none of that works pull a wall phone off the wall and knock him over the head and then say something witty like "leave a message on the beep" or "Phones for you pal!!" or "Here, call 911 cause your going to need a ambulance when this is all over!!"

But seriously if you are aware of your surroundings anything can be used as a weapon. Dont ever forget that. Besides at that 15 - 20 foot range in your scenario he's already in the kill zone. He would be on you before you had a chance to pull any way.