Changing from 10 hours to 4 hours

[tomharkness]

Anyone have a problem with changing the program to 4 hours? There is a proposal that is suggesting that (HB-47 of 2012). I can see that the information in the classroom program should be shortened to 4 hours, but the "Handgun Use" and "Firearms Safety" part really needs to be more. We will become our own worse enemies if we continue to leave the impression with our students that a handgun will somehow protect them... even if they really don't know that much about how it works. Ten hours was a bit troublesome as I would have so many students show up with a firearm that they had never fired, ammo that did not fit the firearm, and a total lack of understanding of how the thing actually worked.

The rules are: if they make the minimum score, then they get the CHL-100. But that only means that they will shoot the right target at least 70% of the time.

DPS gave me permission to count 2 hours of my NRA Basic Pistol Training as part of the CHL Handgun Use training. I would hope that they would set the classroom training for 4 hours and then set another 2 to 4 hours for handgun use and safety. Remember that the TPSB and the TxCHL program are in the same building and the TPSB (Texas Private Security Bureau) has a separate license for instructors that teach the classroom training and the instructors that teach the range training. Many times the instructor is licensed in both of the categories, but not necessarily. If DPS gets any feed back from the TPSB, they might set the program up so that instructors would have to have a license in both the classroom and the Range training.

Personally, I have set up and taught the CHL program in two completely separate training programs on two separate days. Six hours of Classroom training on the paperwork, laws, rules, regulations (way too much time for that part of the program and had to use a lot of fillers) and Written test. Then another 4 hours on the range completing (essentially the NRA First Steps) range training and shooting test. The idea of making the Texas CHL program into two separate training programs (4 hours each) would be something I would like.

I have already designed a Modular program that covers each of the 4 main topics in one hour classroom training... followed by 4 more modular programs designed to teach the equivalent of the NRA First Steps... but with a TXDPS agenda, and then allow for 1 hour of "Drag-on" boring program and testing to make up the 10 hours.

[KC5AV]

Keep in mind that the proposed bill would only set the minimum to 4 hours. You'd still be able to go beyond that. There doesn't appear to be a maximum in the text of the bill.

[tomharkness]

Keep in mind that the proposed bill would only set the minimum to 4 hours. You'd still be able to go beyond that. There doesn't appear to be a maximum in the text of the bill.

You've got to be kidding! If you set up a class that is only 3 hours 59 minutes and 30 seconds, do you really think they would say, "Let's take Tom's class for 8 hours... must be a better class if we are going to be there for the whole day!"

No, DPS originally planned on the CHL program being several days of training... consisting of 2 to 4 hours each day for a week or two. However, they put it in writing that a class had to be "at least" 10 hours... and what happened? Everyone set up an 8 hour class with 1 hour of Written test, and 1 hour on the range. Then they advertised it as "ALL IN ONE DAY" class.

[WildBill]

Anyone have a problem with changing the program to 4 hours?

I don't know how the instructors feel about it, but most people would not oppose a 4 hour class. In fact, many would vote to eliminate the classroom and shooting portion altogether.

I am probably different than most people, but I like to study and learn about new things so I would take a class whether it was required or not. I have been shooting for many years so the shooting and safety aspects are already ingrained into my brain. For my renewal, even though it was not required, I attended the entire 10 hours course.

As far as your classes you could have optional to have seperate courses from the DPS-required classes, but I don't know how many takers you would have.

[tomharkness]

True that: I have a program that seems to work well. I have students come out to the range and I spend about an hour and a half with range safety and rules and then give them the Practical test. They can do this any day of the week. During this time I gather all the information I need to fill out all the paperwork for the classroom.

This allows me all the time in the world to get all the CHL-100's ready and complete all the information before ever going to the classroom on Saturday. There, they don't need to bring a gun, ammo, or anything else (Already done the shoot'n).

The classroom is at Pizza Inn and no one is armed... everyone get free lunch, coffee, snacks, and... they have good bathrooms. All I have to do is pay for the meals. Fortunately the owner is pro-gun, so I can bring blue guns/training guns to show for demonstrations.

[Jumping Frog]

I'd prefer no government-mandated training at all to be able to exercise a constitutional right.

Of course, if someone wants to sign up personally for all the training they can find, I support the right for them to make that choice.

But if someone is stupid and unprepared, and then makes a poor decision that has consequences, I am OK with them facing their consequences.

Life is full of choices and all of them have consequences. However, I prefer the individual having the liberty to make the choice for themselves. Nowhere is it written that someone needs to be prudent, wise, or trained to be able to exercise their rights as a citizen. There are lots of stupid people with CHL's, and I am OK with that.

Government-mandated training is simply another variation of our overly-regulated nanny-state.

All that said, I also understand political realities, and if Mr. Cotton and TSRA believe 4 hour training is politically achievable, then I support this bill. It also has the political calculation that eliminating all training might impact the number of states that will recognize our Texas license.

[WildBill]

Think about this. What if an instructor reserved their training location for 10 hours - 8AM-6PM. The 4 hour DPS class would be 8AM-12PM, and after the class the students could leave or they could stay to get some more training. How many students would actually stay? Free pizza included.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Keep in mind that the proposed bill would only set the minimum to 4 hours. You'd still be able to go beyond that. There doesn't appear to be a maximum in the text of the bill.

That was a mistake and the Senate version will make 4 hours the maximum number of hours. The HB47 will be amended in committee it set a maximum of 4 hrs.

Chas.

[tommyg]

I think 10 hours is not enough need more time to impress students concerning the responsibility of CHL.
More time for actual training in the safe use of a firearm. If we make to requirements too lax
like it is in New Hampshire a few dollars and a background check gets a license
equal to a SA class license......Police in New Hampshire do not like people with permits
and I think the police attitude toward permits would be a lot better if the requirements
were a little higher like at least a shooting testA safety class would be a great idea even for expierenced fire arms users.

10 hours of class followed by a day of safety training with a shooting test at the end is about right.

The anti gun crowd will have a field day if the requirements especially training were cut
and then there is an increase of incidents that will do us nothing but harm

I Know a lot of people won't like this posting but I think it makes a lot of sense

[WildBill]

I think 10 hours is not enough need more time to impress students concerning the responsibility of CHL.
I Know a lot of people won't like this posting but I think it makes a lot of sense

Tommyg - Many won't agree, but thanks for your opinion. That is what this forum is about.

[baldeagle]

I would be in favor of a four hour class that teaches the law about CHL and the responsibilities of a licensee. The prerequisite to the class would be the successful completion of a firearms safety course including range time and demonstrated safe operation of and proficiency with a firearm. You could take the firearms safety course with any qualified instructor, and you would have to submit the course completion certificate, signed by its instructor, to the CHL instructor in order to enroll for the course.

Far too many people who are completely unfamiliar with firearms are attending CHL classes and getting licensed.

[pbwalker]

Training doesn't end once you get your CHL...

[baldeagle]

Training doesn't end once you get your CHL...

It does for many people.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Anyone have a problem with changing the program to 4 hours? There is a proposal that is suggesting that (HB-47 of 2012). I can see that the information in the classroom program should be shortened to 4 hours, but the "Handgun Use" and "Firearms Safety" part really needs to be more. We will become our own worse enemies if we continue to leave the impression with our students that a handgun will somehow protect them... even if they really don't know that much about how it works. Ten hours was a bit troublesome as I would have so many students show up with a firearm that they had never fired, ammo that did not fit the firearm, and a total lack of understanding of how the thing actually worked.

The rules are: if they make the minimum score, then they get the CHL-100. But that only means that they will shoot the right target at least 70% of the time.

DPS gave me permission to count 2 hours of my NRA Basic Pistol Training as part of the CHL Handgun Use training. I would hope that they would set the classroom training for 4 hours and then set another 2 to 4 hours for handgun use and safety. Remember that the TPSB and the TxCHL program are in the same building and the TPSB (Texas Private Security Bureau) has a separate license for instructors that teach the classroom training and the instructors that teach the range training. Many times the instructor is licensed in both of the categories, but not necessarily. If DPS gets any feed back from the TPSB, they might set the program up so that instructors would have to have a license in both the classroom and the Range training.

Personally, I have set up and taught the CHL program in two completely separate training programs on two separate days. Six hours of Classroom training on the paperwork, laws, rules, regulations (way too much time for that part of the program and had to use a lot of fillers) and Written test. Then another 4 hours on the range completing (essentially the NRA First Steps) range training and shooting test. The idea of making the Texas CHL program into two separate training programs (4 hours each) would be something I would like.

I have already designed a Modular program that covers each of the 4 main topics in one hour classroom training... followed by 4 more modular programs designed to teach the equivalent of the NRA First Steps... but with a TXDPS agenda, and then allow for 1 hour of "Drag-on" boring program and testing to make up the 10 hours.

Your suggestion that 4 hrs. is insufficient ignores the fact that the vast majority of the current 700,000 CHLs are on the 2nd or later renewals so they have been taking 4 hr. classes for years. A good percentage of them are on their 3rd or subsequent renewal meaning that they take a 4 hr. renewal course once in 10 years. With only 4 hrs. of training every 5 to 10 years, CHLs have garnered a track record that is nothing short of astounding. 10 hr. classes are not necessary. (See the CHL crime stats.)

Your claim that DPS envisioned multiple-day classes of several hours each is false. I was heavily involved in writing SB60 in 1995 and there was never a plan to let DPS set the number of hours! Quite the contrary; the intent was to make sure only the legislature would do that. Since the bill always called for 10 hrs., DPS couldn't have entertained the thought of a course as you describe. Also, 10 hrs. was a figure pulled right out of the air and 15 years of experience proves it was grossly long.

Your suggestion is clearly based on business issues rather than public safety. It also ignores the fact that we are dealing with a constitutional right rather than an employment decision (security guard).

Chas.

[baldeagle]

Charles, speaking of the track record of Texas CHLs, any chance you'll be able to update that data with more recent stats?