Gun store employee accidentally shoots customer in the back

[AEA]

That MAY have been what happened........

(Clerk): We don't have one of those in stock now, but here (fumble, fumble) I'll show you mine......BANG!

[Jumping Frog]

That MAY have been what happened........

(Clerk): We don't have one of those in stock now, but here (fumble, fumble) I'll show you mine......BANG!

Or a customer brought a loaded gun into the store to shop for a holster and the clerk said, "here, let me unload it first . . . . BANG!"

[jmra]

Volcanoes "just go off," guns don't.
Chas.

hmm......

Lot's of Glock's seem to!

why does it always come back to a Glock...?

Because people love to express their prejudice as fact without providing any proof whatsoever to back their statements.

[E.Marquez]

Because people love to express their prejudice as fact without providing any proof whatsoever to back their statements.

Take your own advice....

A little time spent researching and you'll find all the supporting anecdotal proof needed to see striker fired, no manual safety weapons in the last few years are most often the weapon involved in a ND/AD .. Then further refine your detailed reading, and you'll see which of the striker fired, no manual safety weapons shows up most in the reports of ND/AD events.
..

That said,,, Of course it's not the gun or it's design type at fault. It takes a mistake or worse to have an AD/ND.. with the rare, make that VERY rare true, no fault of the user "it just went off" event.

[Jumping Frog]

A little time spent researching and you'll find all the supporting anecdotal proof needed to see striker fired, no manual safety weapons in the last few years are most often the weapon involved in a ND/AD .. Then further refine your detailed reading, and you'll see which of the striker fired, no manual safety weapons shows up most in the reports of ND/AD events.
..

Of course, to be fair. such a study would also account for differences in market share.

For example, to contrast two different weapon types, an XD has a grip safety and a Glock does not.

Now, I don't personally have access to market share data by firearm manufacturer because I cannot locate any publicly available data on firearm imports.

However, I find one "proxy" indicator interesting. In the 2012 IDPA championships, the equipment survey lists the equipment used by the competitors. There were 108 Glocks to 15 XD's. I would also be willing to bet that if one looked at the market share for duty weapons carried by various police forces, Glock would have an overwhelming market share compared to XD's.

Even if the anecdotal evidence said Glocks were involved in ND's 10 times more frequently than XD's, it may very well reflect a difference in how many of both firearms are in use.

It is a tricky problem to analyze and cannot be done accurately without good data.

(Disclaimer: FWIW, I don't own a Glock and have never owned a Glock, so I have no personal dog in this hunt. I am just a numbers guy and data is a large part of my professional life.)

[jmra]

Because people love to express their prejudice as fact without providing any proof whatsoever to back their statements.

Take your own advice....

A little time spent researching and you'll find all the supporting anecdotal proof needed to see striker fired, no manual safety weapons in the last few years are most often the weapon involved in a ND/AD .. Then further refine your detailed reading, and you'll see which of the striker fired, no manual safety weapons shows up most in the reports of ND/AD events.
..

That said,,, Of course it's not the gun or it's design type at fault. It takes a mistake or worse to have an AD/ND.. with the rare, make that VERY rare true, no fault of the user "it just went off" event.

I can find examples on the Internet of NDs with 1911s galore. In fact I find as many 1911 examples as I do glocks. Doesn't prove anything though. That's why I asked for someone to provide some kind of proof.
BTW, why should burden of proof be on me when I was not the one who made the claim. Would love to see any hard evidence you can provide.

[AEA]

Because people love to express their prejudice as fact without providing any proof whatsoever to back their statements.

I can find examples on the Internet of NDs with 1911s galore. In fact I find as many 1911 examples as I do glocks. Doesn't prove anything though. That's why I asked for someone to provide some kind of proof.
BTW, why should burden of proof be on me when I was not the one who made the claim. Would love to see any hard evidence you can provide.

I noticed you did not provide any proof with your statement either.....

I made no claim whatsoever. I made a statement of MY OPINION: "Lot's of Glock's seem to!"

My post was MY OPINION. Just as you have expressed YOUR OPINION. And as previously stated, if you want to check out the basis of My OPINION you could easily do it.

No need to call me out on MY OPINION. And I won't take this further to disparage YOUR OPINION.

I know Glock owners love their pistols. That's fine. I happen to love my 1911's and that should be fine too!
Prejudice swings both ways my friend and that's fine too.

But Free Speech is a RIGHT and I will continue to express my opinion whenever I desire, with no requirement for proof of anything.

[jmra]

Because people love to express their prejudice as fact without providing any proof whatsoever to back their statements.

I can find examples on the Internet of NDs with 1911s galore. In fact I find as many 1911 examples as I do glocks. Doesn't prove anything though. That's why I asked for someone to provide some kind of proof.
BTW, why should burden of proof be on me when I was not the one who made the claim. Would love to see any hard evidence you can provide.

I noticed you did not provide any proof with your statement either.....

My post was MY OPINION. Just as you have expressed YOUR OPINION. Without proof. And as previously stated, if you want to check out my OPINION you could easily do it.

No need to call me out on MY OPINION. And I won't take this further to disparage YOUR OPINION.

I know Glock owners love their pistols. That's fine. I happen to love my 1911's and that should be fine too!
Prejudice swings both ways my friend and that's fine too.

But Free Speech is a RIGHT that I will continue to express whenever I desire with no requirement for proof of anything.

I have nothing against 1911s. In fact, I own a very fine one that I would never part with. You are entitled to your opinion even if you have no evidence to support it.
I have made no claims so I have nothing to prove.
Good day.

[Jumping Frog]

RE: Glocks vs 1911s

If some either mistakenly or thoughtlessly thinks they unload a semiauto by first racking the slide, then dropping the magazine, and finally pulling the trigger, then I'll note that it doesn't matter what brand name they are holding.

I've seen too many cases where people reverse the dropping the magazine and racking the slide steps.

[jmra]

RE: Glocks vs 1911s

If some either mistakenly or thoughtlessly thinks they unload a semiauto by first racking the slide, then dropping the magazine, and finally pulling the trigger, then I'll note that it doesn't what what brand name they are holding.

I've seen too many cases where people reverse the dropping the magazine and racking the slide steps.

[C-dub]

I was wondering how many of these "Glock" NDs are from people that have had them for a while. I've had Glocks for over 10 years now and not one ND. I've fired a few other types over the years and no NDs with any of them. It brings up a couple of interesting questions.

1. Are most NDs from people unfamiliar with the gun they are handling when the ND occurs?
2. If there is some truth to #1, are many of those by people that are more familiar with guns that have manual safety's?
3. If there is some truth to #2, why are those people so used to having their finger on the trigger? Is it because they have relied too heavily on the manual safety to pevent them from having the ND?

[WildBill]

3. If there is some truth to #2, why are those people so used to having their finger on the trigger? Is it because they have relied too heavily on the manual safety to pevent them from having the ND?

It could be muscle memory. Unless you are trained and trained and practice and practice keeping your finger off the trigger, maybe the trigger finger goes to it's natural place.

[E.Marquez]

I was wondering how many of these "Glock" NDs are from people that have had them for a while. I've had Glocks for over 10 years now and not one ND. I've fired a few other types over the years and no NDs with any of them. It brings up a couple of interesting questions.

1. Are most NDs from people unfamiliar with the gun they are handling when the ND occurs?
2. If there is some truth to #1, are many of those by people that are more familiar with guns that have manual safety's?
3. If there is some truth to #2, why are those people so used to having their finger on the trigger? Is it because they have relied too heavily on the manual safety to pevent them from having the ND?

Hard to say, I've only researched and investigated a few hundred ND's (a large portion of those with current issued military weapons (US, French, Polish, Iraqi, Afghanistan) .. so hardly an expert.. But my opinion and observation is...It runs the whole line of possible reason.. familiar, safety off, pulled or actuated trigger. Un familiar , failed to unload and clear properly, ND. Familiar and unfamiliar, horseplay---ND...

I've lost count at the total number of ND's I have reviewed or personally investigated,, but it is more then 300.. Mil weapons, Personal weapons, borrowed weapons, and once a stolen weapon. ... ...If I had to guess, id say, lack of understanding and training led to most ND's.... split 40/60 between familiar and unfamiliar.. Then familiar and horseplay (with and without alcohol) a third place.

[C-dub]

I was wondering how many of these "Glock" NDs are from people that have had them for a while. I've had Glocks for over 10 years now and not one ND. I've fired a few other types over the years and no NDs with any of them. It brings up a couple of interesting questions.

1. Are most NDs from people unfamiliar with the gun they are handling when the ND occurs?
2. If there is some truth to #1, are many of those by people that are more familiar with guns that have manual safety's?
3. If there is some truth to #2, why are those people so used to having their finger on the trigger? Is it because they have relied too heavily on the manual safety to pevent them from having the ND?

Hard to say, I've only researched and investigated a few hundred ND's (a large portion of those with current issued military weapons (US, French, Polish, Iraqi, Afghanistan) .. so hardly an expert.. But my opinion and observation is...It runs the whole line of possible reason.. familiar, safety off, pulled or actuated trigger. Un familiar , failed to unload and clear properly, ND. Familiar and unfamiliar, horseplay---ND...

I've lost count at the total number of ND's I have reviewed or personally investigated,, but it is more then 300.. Mil weapons, Personal weapons, borrowed weapons, and once a stolen weapon. ... ...If I had to guess, id say, lack of understanding and training led to most ND's.... split 40/60 between familiar and unfamiliar.. Then familiar and horseplay (with and without alcohol) a third place.

If it goes as you say then I would also throw in complacency. I see that quite a bit in my job. Every 4-6 months I have to remind everyone of some of the basic, but critical steps, to avoid mistakes.

[E.Marquez]

If it goes as you say then I would also throw in complacency. I see that quite a bit in my job. Every 4-6 months I have to remind everyone of some of the basic, but critical steps, to avoid mistakes.

Yes that too.

after 3 months in to a rotation, and the last 1~3 months we see that...

Interestingly,, it's worse on the FOB's and patrol bases that the local senior commander has decried that a weapon must be cleared when you enter the "patrol base wire" after a patrol and every building as well. That can be dozens of times a day as you move about your duties.... I see more ND's then then any other location.

Otherwise at Home....(on and off post) it's almost always alcohol or otherwise stupid handling that gets um.. not lack of knowledge (ie they know what right looks like) just crappy decision making