147 grain - a better 9mm cartridge?

[Abraham]

A retired HPD officer advised me that a 9mm isn't enough gun and only a .45 caliber will do. He, having been in a number of shootouts using both calibers found the 9mm inadequate.

Another police officer friend told me about his concern that 9mm's over penetrate rendering it a poor caliber choice. He's a believer in the .40 caliber.

From the ballistics I've read, the 147 grain 9mm velocity is on par with a .45 caliber, thus I would presume the only disadvantage now is it being a slightly smaller diameter than a .45 round.

My Glock is a 9mm and I'm not wanting to change calibers, but I might quit carrying the 124 grain, JHP, Speer Gold Dot plus P for the heavier 147, if it makes sense...?

Thoughts?

Thanks!

[Dave2]

147gr, theoretically, has a slightly longer range since air resistance won't slow it down as much. If you use a suppressor, heavy, subsonic bullets are better because then you get rid of the sonic boom that lighter, supersonic bullets make.

Other than that, I don't know.

[gringo pistolero]

If it makes you more comfortable then it makes sense. I have spoken with a few "name" instructors who had graduates involved in gunfights. In every case, their students prevailed if they hit the BG's cardiac triangle with a serious caliber like 9, 40, or 45. In every case where a student was killed, they didn't get any hits on the BG, most often because they left their gun at home. Draw what conclusions you want from the data.

Disclaimer: I usually carry a 45 because that gun fits my hand like a glove.

[Middle Age Russ]

All else being equal, heavier for caliber bullets will tend to penetrate more, which should certainly be a factor for consideration in carry/defense ammo (either a positive or a negative depending on your specific inclinations and expectations). All else is usually not equal, though. As you mention, velocity on the heavier 9mm is typically lower than the lighter weight bullets. Additionally, different powders will optimize use in shorter or longer barrels. Bullet construction may even vary other than simply extra weight / sectional density making one round expand better than another.

I don't have the budget or time I would like to test all the different factory loads to establish expected performance measures and compare them. I trust that the results published by some of the sources who have done this work are representative and that "the best" in their tests are indeed among the all-around best. I just switched from carrying two year old 124gn +P Gold Dots for newly-purchased fresh ones of the same type, and feel confident that they will perform as I'd want. I would not feel significantly better or worse off with the 147gn Gold Dots, or with 124-147gn Winchester Bonded, Hornady Critical Defense/Critical Duty rounds, or probably a few others.

All that said, if the 147s work well in your Glock there is no compelling reason I know of to not use them. If cooler temps prevail for a while and folks are prone to wearing more layers, any potential extra penetration might end up being appreciated.

[ryouiki]

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php? ... fense-Ammo

From what I've read, all things being equal (which is never the case), the bigger the better... but the difference is slug size is so small compared to the overall size of the human target, that it almost becomes negligible. Seems like we had a topic about this somewhere else on the forum before.... strong hand/weak hand only shooting, magazine capacity, training costs, etc. all play into the formula.

Not that it makes much difference, but I believe at least one of the "alphabet soup" agencies consider Winchester Bonded 147 grain to have quite good performance(though they still consider their .40 rounds to have a slight advantage).

[Chris]

My stepfather immediately dropped a guy with a single 9mm bullet to the pelvis. He was running backwards when he fired. I know plenty of officers who have been in shootings, and to be honest, it almost seems like a lucky shot if they actually hit the person they are aiming at. Anyone can say they are a fantastic shot, but when someone is shooting back, I say all that goes out the window. I know an officer who is a great shot and went through a magazine and a half without hitting anything in a shooting at close range; lucky for him, neither did the bad guy. This is my opinion, but the element of surprise is the absolute, very best, without question, advantage anyone can have to winning a gunfight by shooting the attacker. I don't know of any uniformed cops that have that, but a plethora of criminals do; and so do citizens who carry concealed. Who cares what caliber bullet it is. It won't matter when you are being shot at. All that matters is you have something to shoot back with. I have carried 9mm, 45, 40, and 357 Sig as duty weapons. I am a much better shot with 9mm and 45, and that's what I carried when I was allowed to carry my own weapons. My 9mm rounds were always 147 grain, because I prefer the recoil over the smaller rounds. Personally, I prefer the 9mm to any other weapon available. I can shoot it more accurately when I'm not able to completely rely on the sights. Carefully aimed shots in a gunfight are as rare as finding a unicorn standing next to a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. Anyone who tells you they were able to take careful aim at close range in a gunfight with someone else shooting at them is full of it. They might have pointed at what they hoped was the lethal area and hoped for the best, but careful aim did not happen. When was the last time anyone went to the gun range and fired at a quickly moving target that was ducking in and out of cover, in less than ideal lighting, that was firing back?

[G26ster]

My stepfather immediately dropped a guy with a single 9mm bullet to the pelvis. He was running backwards when he fired. I know plenty of officers who have been in shootings, and to be honest, it almost seems like a lucky shot if they actually hit the person they are aiming at. Anyone can say they are a fantastic shot, but when someone is shooting back, I say all that goes out the window. I know an officer who is a great shot and went through a magazine and a half without hitting anything in a shooting at close range; lucky for him, neither did the bad guy. This is my opinion, but the element of surprise is the absolute, very best, without question, advantage anyone can have to winning a gunfight by shooting the attacker. I don't know of any uniformed cops that have that, but a plethora of criminals do; and so do citizens who carry concealed. Who cares what caliber bullet it is. It won't matter when you are being shot at. All that matters is you have something to shoot back with. I have carried 9mm, 45, 40, and 357 Sig as duty weapons. I am a much better shot with 9mm and 45, and that's what I carried when I was allowed to carry my own weapons. My 9mm rounds were always 147 grain, because I prefer the recoil over the smaller rounds. Personally, I prefer the 9mm to any other weapon available. I can shoot it more accurately when I'm not able to completely rely on the sights. Carefully aimed shots in a gunfight are as rare as finding a unicorn standing next to a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. Anyone who tells you they were able to take careful aim at close range in a gunfight with someone else shooting at them is full of it. They might have pointed at what they hoped was the lethal area and hoped for the best, but careful aim did not happen. When was the last time anyone went to the gun range and fired at a quickly moving target that was ducking in and out of cover, in less than ideal lighting, that was firing back?

We have a winner!

[MoJo]

Your Gold Dot 9mm 124 grain +P is the load NYPD changed to when they quit issuing 9MM FMJ ammo. They shoot a lot of bad guys in the Big Apple and the NYPD is very satisfied with this load. The choice of ammunition is one of the least important aspects of personal protection.

[The Annoyed Man]

I think if you carry a 124/125 grain 9mm.......and a 147 grain .308......you'll be fine.

[JALLEN]

SEALs used to use a 9mm pistol with a suppressor built on, called a "Hush Puppy," used to take out guard dogs, among other things. I was given to understand that the subsonic 147 gr. round was designed for, or at least was selected for, that role.

I thought, again, that "if it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me" and started using those rounds in my P226 without noticing any real difference, shooting paper targets, and beer cans, exclusively. After I bought a P7M8, using the 147 gr. ammo, I started having feeding and ejection problems, and found out, by reading the manual, that the pistol was designed to work with the 124/125 gr. round. I switched to that and everybody has lived happily ever after.

SEALS depend on shot placement to get the job done. I recall reading that SAS operators must be able to routinely make 5 hits in 5 shots on a playing card at 25 yards while flopping around on the ground. None of my retired SEAL acquaintances will say what their marksmanship standard was, but they have to be real good, and practice a lot.

[baldeagle]

The standard response to these types of questions is see Ballistics By The Inch.

Here's the 9 mm Luger numbers. The 147 gr. bullet gives up a lot of muzzle velocity when compared to the 124 gr. (roughly 20%.)

This graph portrays the difference visually.

[ryouiki]

After I bought a P7M8, using the 147 gr. ammo, I started having feeding and ejection problems, and found out, by reading the manual, that the pistol was designed to work with the 124/125 gr. round. I switched to that and everybody has lived happily ever after.

I think this brings up an important point... can you reliably feed whatever ammunition you are carrying? How many people actually run enough of their carry ammunition through the gun to make sure it is an acceptable combination?

If you are sticking with Speer, then ATK provides all the relevant stats to make an informed decision (in so far as I'm aware, LE vs. Civilian rounds are identical other then packaging/taxes):

http://le.atk.com/ammunition/speer/handgun/default.aspx

At least in the 9mm loads, they show all the FBI protocol data that shows velocity/penetration/expansion/etc.

I don't really see the point of +P, given the data that comes from the manufacturers... its not something you are going to train with, not all guns will accept it, and the benefits seem quite small over the standard pressure counterparts. Personally, I went with 124 Gold Dot, since it meets all the important criteria... but read the PDF on that previous link I listed, they cite that incapacitation in many cases is due to psychological pre-dispositions (OMG I've been shot) vs. actual physiological conditions from being shot.

[Chris]

Most people in a gunfight are so hopped up on adrenaline they don't even know they've been shot. On one call, a lady was shot in the chest and didn't know it until the officer noticed the blood pooling on her shirt. She was still talking like all was well. Other than a shot to the brain stem, it's going to take at least 90 seconds to bleed out from a major arterial shot; something like piercing the heart. Besides the fact that that's like trying to hit a moving baseball at whatever distance, but go to the range and see how many rounds you can fire in 90 seconds. That's a very, very long time. It doesn't matter by how much bigger in fractions of inches the bullets are, most all of us will probably run out of ammo long before the attacker dies. We all carry guns to stop an attack. Even if that means the attacker runs off upon meeting resistance, then mission accomplished. To me, the psychological effect I want is, "oh hell, they're shooting back". That's why gunfights are so quick. As you can tell, I'm not a huge fan of ballistics arguments.

[flechero]

A well placed 115 gr. of any type will out perform a 147 gr. of any type that isn't well placed.

Use the cartridge that allows you to shoot most accurately with manageable recoil for fast (accurate) follow up shots.

[nitrogen]

If anyone ever doubts the power of self defense 9mm rounds (I personaly use 124gr +P or +P+) I ask them if they want to go downrange and hold my targets while I practice.

In physics, you learn that kinetic energy = mass times velocity squared (when we're going signigicantly slower than c) so personally, i'll go for the lighter round that moves faster.