Buy and Sell Guns

[jl39775]

Is it illegal to buy a gun and turn it around and sell it? I heard a guy in line at Academy say it's illegal to buy an AR-15 at the store and turn around and sell it for a profit. I see a lot of people standing in the back of the gun shows selling new ARs. I assumed they were picking them up at Wal-Mart or Academy for $1000-1200 and trying to sell them for $2500. I wonder if their legs get tired standing all day. I don't know who crazy enough to buys at $2500.

[seamusTX]

It is not illegal (in other words, it is legal) to buy a firearm and resell it in a short period of time. I think they used to call this free enterprise.

Federal law and regulations have never defined what it means to be in the business of trading firearms.

Any seller can ask any price for anything and either be laughed at or get lucky. By the way, I have a slightly used, very large black cat that you can take away for a mere $1,000.



- Jim

[jl39775]

It is not illegal (in other words, it is legal) to buy a firearm and resell it in a short period of time. I think they used to call this free enterprise.

Federal law and regulations have never defined what it means to be in the business trading firearms.

Any seller can ask any price and either be laughed at or get lucky. By the way, I have a slightly used black cat that you can take away for a mere $1,000.



- Jim

I thought the guy didn't know what he was saying.

[seamusTX]

I suppose he knew what he was saying, but what he was saying was incorrect.

Gun stores are not the best place to get legal advice, second only to bars with sticky floors.

- Jim

[cajunautoxer]

Yes it's illegal to buy a gun with plans of flipping it for a profit. Your suppose to have a ffl if you want to do that. All these guys that buy a AR and flip it are breaking the law. Or if you see a guy here posting a firearm really cheap and you buy it to turn around and sell for a couple hundred more its illegal

[jl39775]

Yes it's illegal to buy a gun with plans of flipping it for a profit. Your suppose to have a ffl if you want to do that. All these guys that buy a AR and flip it are breaking the law. Or if you see a guy here posting a firearm really cheap and you buy it to turn around and sell for a couple hundred more its illegal

I think you're right. I just read it's ok to sell your personal guns without a FFL. However, you need a FFL if you buy and sell a gun that's not for personal use.

[RX8er]

I think there is a lot of grey area in this.

It is not illegal to sell your personal firearms but what is a personal firearm? To buy and sell guns for remuneration you need an FFL to do so. I think if you told the ATF that you were buying them to flip them, you would be arrested.

[seamusTX]

Yes it's illegal to buy a gun with plans of flipping it for a profit.

Which specific law makes this illegal?

- Jim

[Keith B]

The 4473 asks

Are you the actual buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual buyer, the dealer cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you. (See Important Notice 1 for actual buyer definition and examples.)

.

Notice 1 says

For purposes of this form, you are the actual buyer if you are purchasing the
firearm for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself (for example,
redeeming the firearm from pawn/retrieving it from consignment). You are also the
actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm as a legitimate gift for a third party.
ACTUAL BUYER EXAMPLES: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for
Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT
the actual buyer of the firearm and must answer “no “ to question 12a. The
licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones. However, if Mr. Brown goes to
buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present, Mr. Brown is
the actual buyer of the firearm and should answer “yes” to question 12a.

So, there is no law that says you can't buy this gun for yourself and then turn around and sell it immediately.

Now, with that said, there are numerous people who are basically in the business of buying and flipping guns for a profit. That constitutes running a firearms business. However, because the way the law is written and no definition of how many guns a person may buy and sell out of their personal collection, they are skirting by the intentions.

These types are the reason the term 'gun show loophole' was coined. I see them at every gun show. They will trade for a firearm and then immediately have it back on their table with a price marked up to sell. Were they the actual buyer? Yes, so they meet the law, but they are doing it as a business and not really selling from their 'personal collection'. These are the ones that really need to get an FFL.

[jl39775]

The 4473 asks

Are you the actual buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual buyer, the dealer cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you. (See Important Notice 1 for actual buyer definition and examples.)

.

I was at the Gun Show a couple of weeks ago and a guy wanted to buy a nice 1911. He had a Louisiana drivers license and the seller said he couldn't sell it to him. Then he said do you have a friend here that can buy it for you. He said yes but I didn't see him buy it.

[Keith B]

The 4473 asks

Are you the actual buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual buyer, the dealer cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you. (See Important Notice 1 for actual buyer definition and examples.)

.

I was at the Gun Show a couple of weeks ago and a guy wanted to buy a nice 1911. He had a Louisiana drivers license and the seller said he couldn't sell it to him. Then he said do you have a friend here that can buy it for you. He said yes but I didn't see him buy it.

Technically, that would be a legal sale if the Texas Friend bought it with his own money to gift to the Louisiana person. However, to legally even gift the gun to the Louisiana person the Texas person has to go through a Louisiana FFL and transfer it into that state. If the Louisiana person gave the Texas person the money to buy the gun, then that would be considered a straw-man sale and would not be legal, even if they transfered it through an FFL in Louisiana. If the FFL at the show was willing to sell it to the Louisiana person and then transfer it to the person through a Louisiana FFL, that would also be legal.

[stroo]

Arguably as defined in the Gun Control Act of 1968, someone flipping guns is a dealer. Really depends on the circumstances.

[seamusTX]

If you bought a firearm 20 years ago and sold it today, no one would imagine that you were a dealer.

If you bought one firearm yesterday and sold it today, neither BATFE nor any U.S. attorney (federal prosecutor) would consider you a dealer.

Turning over five or ten a week might garner some attention, or it might not.

They have left the definition vague (perhaps intentionally, but they've been doing it for over 50 years). I don't know that it has been tested in federal appeals court. It's like the definition of "traveling" or "peaceable journey" that is always in the eye of the beholder.

What really gets some people nailed to the wall is interstate transfer without a license - also known as gunrunning. Usually these are gang members supplying their "business associates" in a state with restrictive firearms laws.

- Jim

[cajunautoxer]

Lets just say if you've bought 5 ARs since Dec and you no longer have them the ATF wouldn't be happy. I read s&w,where that the ATF has visited people that has made large purchases recently to ask them questions. Not sure in details I think it was one a AK site

[seamusTX]

Lets just say if you've bought 5 ARs since Dec and you no longer have them the ATF wouldn't be happy.

While I try to be an agreeable guy, making government agencies happy isn't on my to-do list.

Quite a few people have been prosecuted for straw purchases, but the ones that I know of transferred firearms to ineligible persons such as felons, gang members, or non-citizens.

- Jim