Buy and Sell Guns

Gun, shooting and equipment discussions unrelated to CHL issues

Moderator: carlson1

User avatar
OldCannon
Senior Member
Posts: 3061
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 11:19 am
Location: Kyle, TX

Re: Buy and Sell Guns

Post by OldCannon »

seamusTX wrote: BATFE does not go after unlicensed individuals for a single sale of a firearm unless it is an intentional illegal transfer. They're not capable of it, any more than the cops could ticket every driver that rolled through a stop sign in Houston.

Unlicensed sellers at gun shows get the hairy eyeball sometimes, but they are rarely prosecuted. I can't find a record of such a prosecution.

- Jim
There's been a couple, but mostly for "show of force" with local LE agencies. DIdn't that happen at an Austin gun show a few years ago?

The real issue here is that one or two will never get on the ATF's radar. They're not even close to being staffed for that (there's only a couple thousand agents for the entire US - do the math on that). But, sell a crateful of AR-15s on GunsAmerica or GunBroker, THAT will get you free room and board for ten years if you're caught.
I don't fear guns; I fear voters and politicians that fear guns.
User avatar
seamusTX
Senior Member
Posts: 13551
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 12:04 pm
Location: Galveston

Re: Buy and Sell Guns

Post by seamusTX »

Shinesintx wrote:Dude, can I call ya dude?
You can call me anything you like. The question is whether I will reply.
The above quote from you really made me giggle. Not sure you were trying to be funny, but that comment was priceless.
I don't try to be funny. If it happens, it's like pennies from heaven.

Seriously, a government agency can't experience emotions.

Individual agents have no legal or moral claim to be happy. They are paid to perform job duties according to statutes and regulations. Some of them, sometimes, try to expand their authority. We can choose to soothe their bloated egos or not—and deal with the consequences either way.

- Jim
Fear, anger, hatred, and greed. The devil's all-you-can-eat buffet.
Shinesintx
Senior Member
Posts: 428
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:20 am
Location: North of Dallas

Re: Buy and Sell Guns

Post by Shinesintx »

seamusTX wrote:
Shinesintx wrote:Dude, can I call ya dude?
You can call me anything you like. The question is whether I will reply.
The above quote from you really made me giggle. Not sure you were trying to be funny, but that comment was priceless.
I don't try to be funny. If it happens, it's like pennies from heaven.

Seriously, a government agency can't experience emotions.

Individual agents have no legal or moral claim to be happy. They are paid to perform job duties according to statutes and regulations. Some of them, sometimes, try to expand their authority. We can choose to soothe their bloated egos or not—and deal with the consequences either way.

- Jim
Please don't misunderstand my comment. I thought what you said was funny, but it included nuggets of wisdom. I totally agree with your premise and logic.
User avatar
seamusTX
Senior Member
Posts: 13551
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 12:04 pm
Location: Galveston

Re: Buy and Sell Guns

Post by seamusTX »

Shinesintx wrote:I thought what you said was funny, but it included nuggets of wisdom.
You know what they say about a blind squirrel. :mrgreen:

- Jim
User avatar
Wodathunkit
Senior Member
Posts: 895
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:18 am
Location: Friendswood, Texas

Re: Buy and Sell Guns

Post by Wodathunkit »

:headscratch I'm trying to figure out why anyone would ever get rid of a gun. If you've got a gun to sell I'd be interested. I've been gun less since that horrible boating accident when all my guns were lost at sea. :mrgreen:
"Character is doing the right thing, even when nobody is looking" - J.C. watts Jr.
CHL since Jan. 2013
53 days mailbox to mailbox.
User avatar
03Lightningrocks
Senior Member
Posts: 11460
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:15 pm
Location: Plano

Re: Buy and Sell Guns

Post by 03Lightningrocks »

seamusTX wrote:
Shinesintx wrote:I thought what you said was funny, but it included nuggets of wisdom.
You know what they say about a blind squirrel. :mrgreen:

- Jim
He gets run over by a car while crossing the street?
User avatar
03Lightningrocks
Senior Member
Posts: 11460
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:15 pm
Location: Plano

Re: Buy and Sell Guns

Post by 03Lightningrocks »

I have made many sales from my personal collection. I have sold guns I owned for less than two weeks. I always purchase weapons I want. If I change my mind and dump it for a profit, it is not even questionable. There is no law that regulates how many guns I can buy or when, where or why I decide to sell them.

Buying a gun for someone else is NOT the same thing as buying a weapon or even a dozen weapons and deciding to put them up for sale... Even if I decide to sale them the next day. Gun dealers will not give a refund on a gun purchase.

On a separate topic. When I sell a weapon on gun broker... Which I have done several times, it always goes to an FFL to be legally transferred to the final owner. This is well within the law.
User avatar
The_Busy_Mom
Senior Member
Posts: 352
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:07 pm
Location: DFW Metro Area

Re: Buy and Sell Guns

Post by The_Busy_Mom »

This comes straight from the Code of Federal Regulations Chapter 27 BATFE DOJ SubChapter B Part 428 428.11 Meaning of Terms
Engaged in the business
(a) Manufacturer of firearms. A person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured;

(b) Manufacturer of ammunition. A person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing ammunition as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the ammunition manufactured;

(c) Dealer in firearms other than a gunsmith or a pawnbroker. A person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such a term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;

Color is my emphasis. Those people who are buying guns without ever adding them to their personal collection (personal firearms record) and then flipping them, wherever or to whomever, are engaged as a dealer in firearms and are breaking the law because the intent of the purchase is to make a profit, not to add the gun to their personal collection. Once it is added to their personal collection, and it is then decided to sell off the gun, selling for a profit doesn't make that person a dealer.
Texas CHL Instructor / NRA Certified Instructor
Final Shot Armory - Specializing in Firearms Sales & Transfers, NFA Sales
$20 Transfers for Current TX CHL Holders, Military, Teachers, LEO / $25 Everyone else
http://www.FinalShotUS.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
User avatar
03Lightningrocks
Senior Member
Posts: 11460
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:15 pm
Location: Plano

Re: Buy and Sell Guns

Post by 03Lightningrocks »

You read it wrong. The words.. "Principal objective of livelihood" are the key words. That means... Making their living from it.

I looked up the definition of livelihood... Just for kicks. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/livelihood" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Profit motivation ALONE does not make it illegal. That would make it illegal to buy a weapon based on having the belief it was a good deal and had more value than what I am paying.

Another caveat. The minute I buy it, the weapon becomes mine and thus... Part of my personal collection. I am not required to have a designated "personal collection" spot I store it in for a specified time frame.


Sorry about all the edits. Some were because my iPad thinks it knows more about spelling than I and another was to add the definition of livelyhood.
Last edited by 03Lightningrocks on Sat Feb 23, 2013 11:37 pm, edited 4 times in total.
User avatar
03Lightningrocks
Senior Member
Posts: 11460
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:15 pm
Location: Plano

Re: Buy and Sell Guns

Post by 03Lightningrocks »

I will tell a funny story. During the last gun "freak out", I was in academy and saw an ar15 being put on the shelf. It was a smith and Wesson M&P . The cheapest one made. No sights... They want around 800 for it. I immediately asked to look at it. While I am looking at it I notice a few guys wondering nervously around and trying to pretend they weren't watching me. LOL... I said to the counter jockey.... I'll take it. I thought those guys were gonna cry... :mrgreen: .

I make my purchase and get the usual escort out the door. I get to my truck and a guy pulls up and offers me a 1000 bucks for it. Being a bit more greedy than that and having seen them on gun broker for 1200, I said no thanks. He said 1100...again... Being a bit paranoid and still thinking I could get more elsewhere, I said... It is not for sale. He said he understood and drove off. Two weeks later I sold it on gun broker for 1250.

Now... I purchased the gun with no intentions of selling it. I was worried they would be unavailable and wanted to get a spare while I could. I changed my mind.

I am not in the business of buying and selling guns. There is no limit or rules regarding how many or how long I must own these weapons I buy and sell.

Can anyone explain to me how a bunch of folks who claim to be pro 2nd amendment are so quick to institute regulations on our rights that don't exists? This very attitude is why the government is going to win in the end and take away our rights. Elitism in our ranks is not a good thing folks.
User avatar
RX8er
Senior Member
Posts: 1269
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:36 pm
Location: Northeast Fort Worth

Re: Buy and Sell Guns

Post by RX8er »

Good story!

In that case, I don't think you broke a law if you really didn't buy it to flip it and I think this is the difference in many cases. These flippers have no intentions on keeping them and making their sole motivation for profit. This is, IMHO, where it violates federal law. This is why they are very clear on the straw purchase side of things about money and who pays. I am not against buying cheap and selling high as general rule of thumb. I may complain like I do about ammo, but I don't think it should be changed, free markets baby!!

In reference to your story / ending statement. If you are going to stand by this as your argument, strap on your favorite handgun and open carry to a couple stores and let me know how that works out for you. :biggrinjester: Or, don't and let's just start telling all new users they don't need a CHL because they have their 2A to back them up. :biggrinjester: Just because we are pro 2A doesn't mean that we also don't want to follow the laws that are on the book, no matter how stupid or anti 2A they may be.

Just my $.02
Final Shot offers Firearms / FFL Transfers / CHL Instruction. Please like our Facebook Page.
If guns kill people, do pens misspell words?
I like options: Sig Sauer | DPMS | Springfield Armory | Glock | Beretta
User avatar
03Lightningrocks
Senior Member
Posts: 11460
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:15 pm
Location: Plano

Re: Buy and Sell Guns

Post by 03Lightningrocks »

RX8er wrote:Good story!

In that case, I don't think you broke a law if you really didn't buy it to flip it and I think this is the difference in many cases. These flippers have no intentions on keeping them and making their sole motivation for profit. This is, IMHO, where it violates federal law. This is why they are very clear on the straw purchase side of things about money and who pays. I am not against buying cheap and selling high as general rule of thumb. I may complain like I do about ammo, but I don't think it should be changed, free markets baby!!

In reference to your story / ending statement. If you are going to stand by this as your argument, strap on your favorite handgun and open carry to a couple stores and let me know how that works out for you. :biggrinjester: Or, don't and let's just start telling all new users they don't need a CHL because they have their 2A to back them up. :biggrinjester: Just because we are pro 2A doesn't mean that we also don't want to follow the laws that are on the book, no matter how stupid or anti 2A they may be.

Just my $.02

Our very own Carlson buys and sells more firearms on this forum than I can count. Is he breaking the law? He usually flips them for a profit. No.... He is not. :rules:

I never said we should promote breaking the law. Which is what you implied with your last comment. Here is what I said.
03Lightningrocks wrote: Can anyone explain to me how a bunch of folks who claim to be pro 2nd amendment are so quick to institute regulations on our rights that don't exists? This very attitude is why the government is going to win in the end and take away our rights. Elitism in our ranks is not a good thing folks.
User avatar
03Lightningrocks
Senior Member
Posts: 11460
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:15 pm
Location: Plano

Re: Buy and Sell Guns

Post by 03Lightningrocks »

The_Busy_Mom wrote: (c) Dealer in firearms other than a gunsmith or a pawnbroker. A person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such a term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;
Read this again folks. This definition clearly is not talking about a person who buys guns on occasion because they believe the value will increase.

It takes everything in that paragraph to make buying and selling firearms without an FFL illegal. Devotes time, attention and labor. Regular course of trade or business. Principal objective of livelihood(earning a living from it) AND profit through the REPETITIVE purchase and resale of firearms.

The other phrase that is getting misused in this thread is straw purchase. Here is the definition of straw purchase. A straw purchase is any purchase wherein a person agrees to acquire a good or service for someone who is unable or unwilling to purchase the good or service himself.

These are two completely different issues and discussing them as if they are one and the same is pointless.
User avatar
The_Busy_Mom
Senior Member
Posts: 352
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:07 pm
Location: DFW Metro Area

Re: Buy and Sell Guns

Post by The_Busy_Mom »

Devotes time, attention, and labor - Standing outside the doors at Academy at 2am, knowing said store doesn't open until 8 am, to buy a firearm you intend to take to the gun show to sell the next day.

Principal objective of livelihood and profit- doesn't say your 'day job' is your only livelihood. If the profit you seek goes toward a bill or food for the household, that profit gain contributes to your livelihood.

Repetitive - Said line standing and purchasing on more than 1 occasion, and then flipping the firearm, is repetition.

I agree that the use of the straw purchase example earlier in this thread is a misuse. You and I can agree on that. Your story above applies that you did not 'intend' to flip the firearm you were purchasing. However, in the OP's original statement, the intent was to flip the firearm, for a profit. Which, IMO, is the very definition of the Federal Code. Where the examples I just mentioned deviate from the 'dealer' is when you have entered them into your personal collection, and then choose to sell them off for a profit. No, you don't have to have a particular place to store the firearm. But you have to put it in your personal collection. For example, I have a paper that lists all my firearms, their serial numbers, make, model, etc., so that if they were to be stolen, I would have the information I need to properly make a claim on insurance/call the police, etc. If the purchased firearm never goes into my record because I intend to flip it, then I did not purchase it to enhance my personal collection. That is just one example I use personally. You may have another way of 'placing' a firearm into your personal collection. However, buying to flip is not an example.
Texas CHL Instructor / NRA Certified Instructor
Final Shot Armory - Specializing in Firearms Sales & Transfers, NFA Sales
$20 Transfers for Current TX CHL Holders, Military, Teachers, LEO / $25 Everyone else
http://www.FinalShotUS.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
User avatar
03Lightningrocks
Senior Member
Posts: 11460
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:15 pm
Location: Plano

Re: Buy and Sell Guns

Post by 03Lightningrocks »

The_Busy_Mom wrote:Devotes time, attention, and labor - Standing outside the doors at Academy at 2am, knowing said store doesn't open until 8 am, to buy a firearm you intend to take to the gun show to sell the next day.

Principal objective of livelihood and profit- doesn't say your 'day job' is your only livelihood. If the profit you seek goes toward a bill or food for the household, that profit gain contributes to your livelihood.

Repetitive - Said line standing and purchasing on more than 1 occasion, and then flipping the firearm, is repetition.

I agree that the use of the straw purchase example earlier in this thread is a misuse. You and I can agree on that. Your story above applies that you did not 'intend' to flip the firearm you were purchasing. However, in the OP's original statement, the intent was to flip the firearm, for a profit. Which, IMO, is the very definition of the Federal Code. Where the examples I just mentioned deviate from the 'dealer' is when you have entered them into your personal collection, and then choose to sell them off for a profit. No, you don't have to have a particular place to store the firearm. But you have to put it in your personal collection. For example, I have a paper that lists all my firearms, their serial numbers, make, model, etc., so that if they were to be stolen, I would have the information I need to properly make a claim on insurance/call the police, etc. If the purchased firearm never goes into my record because I intend to flip it, then I did not purchase it to enhance my personal collection. That is just one example I use personally. You may have another way of 'placing' a firearm into your personal collection. However, buying to flip is not an example.
While I understand your reasoning, it just doesn't work that way in real life. There is no requirement for making the weapon a part of your personal collection. The instant I buy it, the weapon becomes mine and thus... In my personal collection. There is no rule stating I have to write down anything or file anything declaring it is part of my personal collection. While your insurance carrier may want proof you owned the weapon if it is stolen or ruined in a fire, this has nothing to do with whether or not the gun is part of my "personal collection". I don't have two different classifications of weapons in my house... Nobody does.... Except for an FFL. I believe an FFL is required to keep records separate but maybe not. The rest of us don't have to do that.

Waiting in line to buy a weapon does not make it illegal either. Neither does getting on a waiting list to buy it.

Truth is, trying to show a person is engaging in the firearms business without an FFL.... Is almost impossible to prove unless someone is just flat out being stupid about it. Like someone posted earlier. There isn't a number attached to the law.

I suppose if I were to make a daily habit of buying weapons at academy and selling them on gun broker or at a gun show, I might get some attention, but that would fall in the stupid category.

I thought of a question I had about the wording in your last sentence. What if I said I bought a gun because I believed the value of it would go higher and I thought it would be a good investment. Is that what you mean when you say " buying it to flip"? Is it a time frame issue? There is no law concerning how long I have to wait before selling it. I can decide to liquidate my personal weapons any time I choose.
Post Reply

Return to “General Gun, Shooting & Equipment Discussion”