Gunsmithing w/o license

[wheelgun1958]

A co-worker has a son who does 'repairs' on 'friends' firearms. He's spoken to me of his son's dabbling in class III (suppressors) and pyrotechnics also. I've discussed this with my co-worker and he has spoken with his son, to no avail. It seems I'm just a voice in the wilderness.

[Jumping Frog]

Gunsmith FAQ from ATF: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/gunsmiths.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You can lead a horse to water . . .

[RX8er]

I think there is a difference between being an armorer and gunsmith but I don;t know if the ATF sees it that way. I also think there are clear rules that separate what a gunsmith can or cannot do. The ATF has great FAQ on this. If your bud is charging, then the ATF has a case and if it is "helping" out free of charge, then he may beat the rap. There is also a huge problem when you mention the NFA items no matter how you phrase it. This can/will get him tossed in jail real quick. You cannot even make yourself an NFA item for your own use without an FFL for manufacturing and your Class III.

EDIT: Jumping Frog posted the link to the ATF FAQ.

[sunny beach]

Dealer. Any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail; any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms; or any person who is a pawnbroker. The term shall include any person who engages in such business or occupation on a part-time basis.

In another thread, people were saying the occasional sale to somebody else didn't require a FFL so how can the occasional repair for somebody else require a FFL?

[puma guy]

Gunsmith FAQ from ATF: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/gunsmiths.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You can lead a horse to water . . . but getting it to float on it's back is a different thing, entirely!

There fixed it for ya!

[baldeagle]

From the ATF FAQ:

Q: Is a license needed to engage in the business of engraving, customizing, refinishing or repairing firearms?

Yes. A person conducting such activities as a business is considered to be a gunsmith within the definition of a dealer.

[27 CFR 478.11]

So, if he's not charging for his services, is he "conducting such activities as a business"?

[K.Mooneyham]

From the ATF FAQ:

Q: Is a license needed to engage in the business of engraving, customizing, refinishing or repairing firearms?

Yes. A person conducting such activities as a business is considered to be a gunsmith within the definition of a dealer.

[27 CFR 478.11]

So, if he's not charging for his services, is he "conducting such activities as a business"?

Fine question. I don't see how its actually "gunsmithing" if the person isn't charging any money for the service. But, then again, this is the BATFE's rules...

[RX8er]

Nothing before or after

dabbling in class III (suppressors)

should even matter. Money, for free, gag gifts, to take pictures of..... The ATF is pretty dang clear when it comes to these.

I'm bowing out because I've beaten this horse already.

[K.Mooneyham]

Nothing before or after

dabbling in class III (suppressors)

should even matter. Money, for free, gag gifts, to take pictures of..... The ATF is pretty dang clear when it comes to these.

I'm bowing out because I've beaten this horse already.

NFA stuff is a whole separate ball-game from just regular old gunsmithing, IMHO. Just for some clarity to what I said above.

[OldCannon]

A co-worker has a son who does 'repairs' on 'friends' firearms. He's spoken to me of his son's dabbling in class III (suppressors) and pyrotechnics also. I've discussed this with my co-worker and he has spoken with his son, to no avail. It seems I'm just a voice in the wilderness.

I'd suggest he gets himself measured for an orange jumpsuit, but I reckon he won't spend much time in it.

The ATF loves those types too - easy open-and-shut case. Makes for good conviction rate for the agents involved.

10 years, minimum, and he can never even _look_ at a gun again after that.

He should do something less risky, like drag racing without a seat belt.

One thing I will say: If thew owner is within "reasonable control" of the firearm (i.e., in the house/on the property), it's fine. Anything stays overnight, he better have a license (and NFA items, he better have a SOT).

[OldCannon]

NFA stuff is a whole separate ball-game from just regular old gunsmithing, IMHO. Just for some clarity to what I said above.

Not really. Just need to pay the annual SOT in addition to your 01/07 licensing.

[The Annoyed Man]

My son does occasional work that could be called "gunsmithing." He's done an absolutely superb trigger job on my Springfield 1911. He's done mods to his AR15s, my AR15s, his wife's and FIL's AR15s. He is employed by a business which holds an FFL, and he does occasional work on guns that his boss gives him to work on, but those guns are his boss's guns, not customer guns. They are not gun vendors, they have the FFL because they sell very high end night vision optics, mostly to the special forces community, and sometimes guns are shipped back and forth for testing and/or fitting of various optical devices. My son doesn't have any kind of license. He knows what he knows, and he doesn't attempt what he doesn't know.

[alvins]

i certainly hope this guy isnt working on class 3 items without the registered owner there. hello federal prison looking at 10 years 10,000 dollar fine minimum. not very smart. lol

from what ive been told if your working on any firearms and they drop it off and keep it over night you need an ffl. if you are simply working on it with the owner there then its not a problem....only what ive been told.

[alvins]

You cannot even make yourself an NFA item for your own use without an FFL for manufacturing and your Class III.

EDIT: Jumping Frog posted the link to the ATF FAQ.

that is incorrect. you can make your own long as you submit your form and get approved and have your stamp.

[RX8er]

You cannot even make yourself an NFA item for your own use without an FFL for manufacturing and your Class III.

EDIT: Jumping Frog posted the link to the ATF FAQ.

that is incorrect. you can make your own long as you submit your form and get approved and have your stamp.

You are correct, I got over zealous.... You need the stamp before you can start making one for yourself.