Selling handgun - documentation?

[Dadtodabone]

I have a large personal collection of firearms that have been accumulating since 1971. During the last 40 odd years I've bought 177 long guns and 103 pistols, traded 37 long guns and 52 pistols, sold 81 long guns and 36 pistols, gifted to relatives 22 long guns and 31 pistols. These numbers are not estimates, they are exact. How do I know? I have a log, that my insurance agent recommended I maintain if I ever wanted to be compensated in the event of a loss, and I have a receipt or bill of sale for every single transaction.
I am not an FFL, I am not engaging in this activity as a business or for financial support. I am not concerned with Federal or State Government investigating me or somehow prosecuting me for selling a gun to someone F2F. I am concerned that I could suffer catastropic financial loss or face charges of fraud in the event of a fire, natural disaster or burglary.
Is my penchant for record keeping in any way an infringement of anyones right to keep and bear arms? How does it impower the antis? All I'm doing is protecting my investment. If the time ever comes I want to be able to recover or have replaced my 1950s era Rem 870s in 12, 16, 20, 28 and .410.

[03Lightningrocks]

I have a large personal collection of firearms that have been accumulating since 1971. During the last 40 odd years I've bought 177 long guns and 103 pistols, traded 37 long guns and 52 pistols, sold 81 long guns and 36 pistols, gifted to relatives 22 long guns and 31 pistols. These numbers are not estimates, they are exact. How do I know? I have a log, that my insurance agent recommended I maintain if I ever wanted to be compensated in the event of a loss, and I have a receipt or bill of sale for every single transaction.
I am not an FFL, I am not engaging in this activity as a business or for financial support. I am not concerned with Federal or State Government investigating me or somehow prosecuting me for selling a gun to someone F2F. I am concerned that I could suffer catastropic financial loss or face charges of fraud in the event of a fire, natural disaster or burglary.
Is my penchant for record keeping in any way an infringement of anyones right to keep and bear arms? How does it impower the antis? All I'm doing is protecting my investment. If the time ever comes I want to be able to recover or have replaced my 1950s era Rem 870s in 12, 16, 20, 28 and .410.

While your firearms ownership history is more than impressive, I think you might have missed the point. The debate was not about keeping a record of your weapons for insurance purposes. The debate was about requiring a bill of sale, with the purchasers private imformation listed on it, when making a private firearms transaction. Some of us feel the law requires no such measures so there is no point in doing this. Others feel it will protect them in some way. I assume the concern is over the weapon being used in a crime.

Did I mention I was impressed by your firearms collection?

[mrvmax]

Your original purchase is logged on the 4473 you filled out. After 20 years the FFL can destroy the 4473, if he goes out of business the 4473's go to the ATF. The NICS check only has the type and your personal info (no serial number, model number etc.). If you bought two or more handguns together or in a five business day period then the ATF has all the info for you and the firearm on file (multiple handgun report form). Depending upon where you are the same could apply to some rifles (ATF multiple long gun report form). The multiple reporting forms have alot of info on them and tells the ATF exactly what you have, who you are etc.
People get paranoid about checking ID and getting a bill of sale. It is your right to request what you want when you sell yoru firearm but why add more stipulations that are not required? We complain about the anti's trying to add regulations then when we sell our personal firearms as firearm owners we are just as bad.
I would like to hear from the lawyers on the site about any cases they have heard of where a private seller encountered some legal issue over a sale. Prior to being an FFL as long as they appeared to be 21 or older (for handguns) and did not appear to have any reason why they could not legally own it (I would ask them and take their word) I sold it.

[Dadtodabone]

I have a large personal collection of firearms that have been accumulating since 1971. During the last 40 odd years I've bought 177 long guns and 103 pistols, traded 37 long guns and 52 pistols, sold 81 long guns and 36 pistols, gifted to relatives 22 long guns and 31 pistols. These numbers are not estimates, they are exact. How do I know? I have a log, that my insurance agent recommended I maintain if I ever wanted to be compensated in the event of a loss, and I have a receipt or bill of sale for every single transaction.
I am not an FFL, I am not engaging in this activity as a business or for financial support. I am not concerned with Federal or State Government investigating me or somehow prosecuting me for selling a gun to someone F2F. I am concerned that I could suffer catastropic financial loss or face charges of fraud in the event of a fire, natural disaster or burglary.
Is my penchant for record keeping in any way an infringement of anyones right to keep and bear arms? How does it impower the antis? All I'm doing is protecting my investment. If the time ever comes I want to be able to recover or have replaced my 1950s era Rem 870s in 12, 16, 20, 28 and .410.

While your firearms ownership history is more than impressive, I think you might have missed the point. The debate was not about keeping a record of your weapons for insurance purposes. The debate was about requiring a bill of sale, with the purchasers private imformation listed on it, when making a private firearms transaction. Some of us feel the law requires no such measures so there is no point in doing this. Others feel it will protect them in some way. I assume the concern is over the weapon being used in a crime.

Did I mention I was impressed by your firearms collection?

No, I didn't miss the point, "I have a receipt or bill of sale for every single transaction" receipts from FFLs, bills of sale from private parties. They all protect me in some way! On some of the bills of sale it was a matter of provenance, maintaining the chain of custody if you will, on one it was to protect me from potential claims from heirs, after a state appointed trustee sold me several early Colt SAAs to cover expenses he incurred while managing a bankruptcy where the principal had passed away, some on deals that, while I had no reason to be suspicious of the seller, were just to darn good. In one instance an 1899 Purdey Best grade hammer gun, 12 bore, reproofed and original leather gun case repaired in 1965, for all the CASH I could gather up on a Sunday, $1933.00. I have a photostatic copy of every scrap of identification I could get, used an ink pad to get thumb prints! If I could have made a copy of the gentleman's birth certificate I would have. You never know what might come back to bite you, the angry husband whose wife sold me his junky old guns, one of which was an 90% Winchester M-1 Garand, after she had cleaned out his closet, etc. etc. etc.(yul brenner) I can't remember how many great buys I didn't make because the seller refused to provide identification. I have several LEOs in the family, see gifted above, who run numbers for me after the fact and I have never purchased a stolen firearm.
As far as the collection goes I've only netted around 3 guns per year since I started. Back in the old days an ad in the back of the Shot Gun News, or a classified in the local paper "I Buy Guns" generated a lot of leads, I had cousins in 4 states checking for estate sales with firearms in the listings. Buy one, trade for 2, sell to get 5 and so on. As demand changes in the market you can do well, as I have posted before, when the high capacity polymer frames were all the rage in the late 80s and early 90s those heavy old steel pistols were cheap!
The average, to date, paid per piece is just north of $1700.00 . The early acquisitons were substatially less, a Parker AHE 20 bore straight stock that had seen better days for $200.00, it was so beat up it had to be, dear God never again, restored, that's another post though, it's probably worth $20k now, a 95-98% original AHE is probably in the $35k-40k range.
I probably would have done better to put the money in say, a CD during the Carter Administration(14% or more), a 401(k) or the stock market or real estate or just about anything other than guns. But I've had a great time collecting, met a lot of great people, toured some awesome places, laughed at 3 different contractors who thought I was a loon when I was getting bids on enclosing my garage, 12x12 solid poured concrete block, 1 inch steel in every hole, columns to support the 3/4 steel plate ceilings, piers and 12 inch over pour on the floor, climate control system, etc.

[apostate]

I have a large personal collection of firearms that have been accumulating since 1971. During the last 40 odd years I've bought 177 long guns and 103 pistols, traded 37 long guns and 52 pistols, sold 81 long guns and 36 pistols, gifted to relatives 22 long guns and 31 pistols. These numbers are not estimates, they are exact. How do I know? I have a log, that my insurance agent recommended I maintain if I ever wanted to be compensated in the event of a loss, and I have a receipt or bill of sale for every single transaction.
I am not an FFL, I am not engaging in this activity as a business or for financial support. I am not concerned with Federal or State Government investigating me or somehow prosecuting me for selling a gun to someone F2F. I am concerned that I could suffer catastropic financial loss or face charges of fraud in the event of a fire, natural disaster or burglary.

If your guns are stolen or destroyed, I hope your insurance policy will cover replacement value, not merely the original price from a forty year old bill of sale or receipt.

[Dadtodabone]

I have a large personal collection of firearms that have been accumulating since 1971. During the last 40 odd years I've bought 177 long guns and 103 pistols, traded 37 long guns and 52 pistols, sold 81 long guns and 36 pistols, gifted to relatives 22 long guns and 31 pistols. These numbers are not estimates, they are exact. How do I know? I have a log, that my insurance agent recommended I maintain if I ever wanted to be compensated in the event of a loss, and I have a receipt or bill of sale for every single transaction.
I am not an FFL, I am not engaging in this activity as a business or for financial support. I am not concerned with Federal or State Government investigating me or somehow prosecuting me for selling a gun to someone F2F. I am concerned that I could suffer catastropic financial loss or face charges of fraud in the event of a fire, natural disaster or burglary.

If your guns are stolen or destroyed, I hope your insurance policy will cover replacement value, not merely the original price from a forty year old bill of sale or receipt.

Oh! No! My agent comes by every year, we smoke cigars and do MacCallan shooters . He inspects my security, verifies the alarm monitoring, receives a dvd with a dozen photos of each of the guns, notes changes in the collection, and overall stated value per the Blue Book plus 15% and updates my policy. Any major changes during the year that increase the total value of the collection above the 15% over Blue Book have to be reported to him.
When I moved to Texas, insurance was tough to find, the Allison claims and scams had just about wiped out underwriters and nobody wanted to write me a policy, I had a quote from Texas/Lloyds that was the equivalent of 4% of the value of the collection annually, that's about 25 times the normal rate for homeowners insurance. I whined to my former agent, great gal, my high school class president, who has more examples of the taxidermists art hanging from the walls of her office than Carter has pills, and she arranged an interview with my current agent. He arranged for a property profile, a rep from the underwriter reviewed it and gave me a proposal that included minimum levels of security that I had to comply with and I got insurance.
I also got a carport when the garage was enclosed and my wife got the biggest studio for her art that she's ever had, when the 2 bedrooms that had been slated for the gun room weren't able to be converted to the insurance company's minimum specs.

Post Script,
Take the VP's advice buy a shotgun, a sidelock SXS, parker, powell, purdey, fox, belgian browning, connecticut. There seems to be an over abundance of mid grade collectible doubles in private hands that have been underpriced for 3-4 years now. I bought an RBL field grade, never fired, in case, for $1900.00 4 weeks ago. The run up on ARs, AKs and ammo, have had folks taking a second look at holding these guns. They will ultimately recover their value, for the RBL approx. $3k, while the MSRs will decline to their preObama values.

edited to add post script

[Beiruty]

I have a large personal collection of firearms that have been accumulating since 1971. During the last 40 odd years I've bought 177 long guns and 103 pistols, traded 37 long guns and 52 pistols, sold 81 long guns and 36 pistols, gifted to relatives 22 long guns and 31 pistols. These numbers are not estimates, they are exact. How do I know? I have a log, that my insurance agent recommended I maintain if I ever wanted to be compensated in the event of a loss, and I have a receipt or bill of sale for every single transaction.
I am not an FFL, I am not engaging in this activity as a business or for financial support. I am not concerned with Federal or State Government investigating me or somehow prosecuting me for selling a gun to someone F2F. I am concerned that I could suffer catastropic financial loss or face charges of fraud in the event of a fire, natural disaster or burglary.

If your guns are stolen or destroyed, I hope your insurance policy will cover replacement value, not merely the original price from a forty year old bill of sale or receipt.

Oh! No! My agent comes by every year, we smoke cigars and do MacCallan shooters . He inspects my security, verifies the alarm monitoring, receives a dvd with a dozen photos of each of the guns, notes changes in the collection, and overall stated value per the Blue Book plus 15% and updates my policy. Any major changes during the year that increase the total value of the collection above the 15% over Blue Book have to be reported to him.
When I moved to Texas, insurance was tough to find, the Allison claims and scams had just about wiped out underwriters and nobody wanted to write me a policy, I had a quote from Texas/Lloyds that was the equivalent of 4% of the value of the collection annually, that's about 25 times the normal rate for homeowners insurance. I whined to my former agent, great gal, my high school class president, who has more examples of the taxidermists art hanging from the walls of her office than Carter has pills, and she arranged an interview with my current agent. He arranged for a property profile, a rep from the underwriter reviewed it and gave me a proposal that included minimum levels of security that I had to comply with and I got insurance.
I also got a carport when the garage was enclosed and my wife got the biggest studio for her art that she's ever had, when the 2 bedrooms that had been slated for the gun room weren't able to be converted to the insurance company's minimum specs.

Post Script,
Take the VP's advice buy a shotgun, a sidelock SXS, parker, powell, purdey, fox, belgian browning, connecticut. There seems to be an over abundance of mid grade collectible doubles in private hands that have been underpriced for 3-4 years now. I bought an RBL field grade, never fired, in case, for $1900.00 4 weeks ago. The run up on ARs, AKs and ammo, have had folks taking a second look at holding these guns. They will ultimately recover their value, for the RBL approx. $3k, while the MSRs will decline to their preObama values.

edited to add post script

Nice to have you on the board. I have 2 brothers, one has collection of more 100 modern firearms and not collectible shotguns. The other a Pharmacists who only buys shotguns. He once bought 17 shotguns from estate sale for $51,000 and the collection included 2 Holland and Holland maybe worth $50,000 alone. He does restore most of what he collects if it does a display-quality.

Some of his collection on display:

[03Lightningrocks]

[rotor]

Dadtodabone
I envy what you have done. Wish I were able to have such a collection.

[RottenApple]

Nice to have you on the board. I have 2 brothers, one has collection of more 100 modern firearms and not collectible shotguns. The other a Pharmacists who only buys shotguns. He once bought 17 shotguns from estate sale for $51,000 and the collection included 2 Holland and Holland maybe worth $50,000 alone. He does restore most of what he collects if it does a display-quality.

Some of his collection on display:
[ Image ]
[ Image ]
[ Image ]
[ Image ]
[ Image ]
[ Image ]
[ Image ]
[ Image ]

Oh. My. Stars.

[Dadtodabone]

Absolutely beautiful! My congratulations to your brother.

[tbrown]

Post Script,
Take the VP's advice buy a shotgun, a sidelock SXS, parker, powell, purdey, fox, belgian browning, connecticut. There seems to be an over abundance of mid grade collectible doubles in private hands that have been underpriced for 3-4 years now. I bought an RBL field grade, never fired, in case, for $1900.00 4 weeks ago. The run up on ARs, AKs and ammo, have had folks taking a second look at holding these guns. They will ultimately recover their value, for the RBL approx. $3k, while the MSRs will decline to their preObama values.

edited to add post script

I bought a used 870 at a garage sale for less than $300. It does everything I need a shotgun to do.

Post Script. I didn't show ID.

[03Lightningrocks]

I bought a used 870 at a garage sale for less than $300. It does everything I need a shotgun to do.

Post Script. I didn't show ID.

LOL


Post Script.

[Wes]

I think this conversation has two different situations to consider when getting documentation. Purchasing for use and purchasing for investment. If I were buying guns as an investment that are or will be worth tens of thousands of dollars, then yes, I would absolutely get documentation. It's not about protecting me in regards to the item being a gun, its about the financials of the situation. In every case like that, the better your paper trail the better you will be. If I were buying a gun that is solely intended to be used as a gun, then if i was buying it I would not consent to a bill or sale and if selling it, I would ask for ID/CHL and ask if they are allowed to own a gun but not record anything.

[03Lightningrocks]

I think this conversation has two different situations to consider when getting documentation. Purchasing for use and purchasing for investment. If I were buying guns as an investment that are or will be worth tens of thousands of dollars, then yes, I would absolutely get documentation. It's not about protecting me in regards to the item being a gun, its about the financials of the situation. In every case like that, the better your paper trail the better you will be. If I were buying a gun that is solely intended to be used as a gun, then if i was buying it I would not consent to a bill or sale and if selling selling it, I would ask for ID/CHL and ask if they are allowed to own a gun but not record anything.

You make a good point. The buyer is the one taking all the risk. A buyer could be purchasing a stolen weapon. Especially if dealing in high dollar guns as you pointed out.