Encounter with school group

Commander · Post by **Commander** » Wed May 09, 2007 8:42 pm

I had occasion to go to Rockwall City Hall this morning. As I was walking in, I noticed a Rockwall ISD school bus idling outside. Upon entering I encountered about 30 - 40 school kids (about 4th - 5th grade) on a field trip to city hall.

I was carrying this morning. I admit I was at a loss as to what action I shoud take (if any). Rockwall City Hall is not posted with 30.06 signs. But since I encountered an obvious school activity, did I have a responsibiltiy to leave the premises?

longtooth · Post by **longtooth** » Wed May 09, 2007 9:16 pm

No responsibility to leave.
Probably more interaction than cordial greetings may put you in jepardy if one of the kids got too close.

stevie_d_64 · Post by **stevie_d_64** » Thu May 10, 2007 7:15 am

I agree with LT...

In any event you had the right to be there, and no duty to retreat at the sight of school children!

Sorry, couldn't resist...

chewy555 · Post by **chewy555** » Thu May 10, 2007 7:25 am

I would say that you are good to go, as you did not go with the school or go to meet them. They just happened to be in the same place as you, nothing more.

Post by **Crossfire** » Thu May 10, 2007 7:36 am

There was a big yellow bus outside, there were school kids inside.

You don't think maybe this was a school sponsored event?

PC Â§46.03. PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED. (a) A person commits
an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly possesses
or goes with a firearm, illegal knife, club, or prohibited weapon
listed in Section 46.05(a):
(1) on the physical premises of a school or educational institution,
any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or
educational institution is being conducted, or a passenger transportation
vehicle of a school or educational institution, whether the school or
educational institution is public or private, unless pursuant to written
regulations or written authorization of the institution;

stevie_d_64 · Post by **stevie_d_64** » Thu May 10, 2007 8:10 am

llwatson wrote:There was a big yellow bus outside, there were school kids inside.

You don't think maybe this was a school sponsored event?

PC Â§46.03. PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED. (a) A person commits
an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly possesses
or goes with a firearm, illegal knife, club, or prohibited weapon
listed in Section 46.05(a):
(1) on the physical premises of a school or educational institution,
any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or
educational institution is being conducted, or a passenger transportation
vehicle of a school or educational institution, whether the school or
educational institution is public or private, unless pursuant to written
regulations or written authorization of the institution;

Technically this is right on...

But lets say I am in downtown Houston at 611 Walker (Public Works) running plans and getting city engineer sign-offs...

Due to the changes and compramises back in 2005, I am allowed to carry inside that city building...I have done so everytime I go there...You are required (reluctantly, but I do it) to ID and sign in to be specially badged (reluctantly, but I accept it)...

Whether I show up before, or after, a bunch of school kids on a field trip to this facility are there, I do not believe my established presense in that building violate that statute...I am conducting lawful business in that facility, and the fact that I am armed has zero bearing upon that activity, nor should I be forced to change because there are children present...

Futhermore, any school that thinks taking kids to that building for a field trip is a good idea, to expand whatever they believe needs expanding, should be made to mow their schools property during the summer months, late in the day! Its the most boring place ever!

"SteyrM40" (an old PDO friend on mine) and I have probably been exchanging the same "red" badge at 611 Walker for the last couple of years...I believe we may actually be the only two CHL'ers in the entire Houston area to ever, ever go through the gauntlet of this procedure since the change in 2005...

Why??? Because we can, and in this case we should...

Greybeard · Post by **Greybeard** » Thu May 10, 2007 8:42 am

Most of the "city halls" in our area have a court in the building.

Sludge · Post by **Sludge** » Thu May 10, 2007 8:44 am

I think you have to look at the intent here. The school was on a "field trip". I doubt that the school had rented that building out for their activities, more likely they where invited guests. Now If it was at a private event, say renting a restaurant for a night that was closed down to the pubic and was only available for students, parents and faculty, In my opinion then you would be at fault for carrying in that situation , I think in that situation you would be at fault due to that being a "school sponsored event".

If that makes any sense.

stevie_d_64 · Post by **stevie_d_64** » Thu May 10, 2007 9:03 am

Sludge wrote:I think you have to look at the intent here. The school was on a "field trip". I doubt that the school had rented that building out for their activities, more likely they where invited guests. Now If it was at a private event, say renting a restaurant for a night that was closed down to the pubic and was only available for students, parents and faculty, In my opinion then you would be at fault for carrying in that situation , I think in that situation you would be at fault due to that being a "school sponsored event".

If that makes any sense.

I believe it does...

Lets rattle off a list of situations where a school would rent or lease a facility where we would normally be ok to carry in, yet if it fell into these conditions, we would not be able to at that particular time...

I can think of a few...

Prom

School Athletic Banquets

School Music Department performances

etc etc etc...

NcongruNt · Post by **NcongruNt** » Thu May 10, 2007 9:25 am

stevie_d_64 wrote:
Sludge wrote:I think you have to look at the intent here. The school was on a "field trip". I doubt that the school had rented that building out for their activities, more likely they where invited guests. Now If it was at a private event, say renting a restaurant for a night that was closed down to the pubic and was only available for students, parents and faculty, In my opinion then you would be at fault for carrying in that situation , I think in that situation you would be at fault due to that being a "school sponsored event".

If that makes any sense.
I believe it does...

Lets rattle off a list of situations where a school would rent or lease a facility where we would normally be ok to carry in, yet if it fell into these conditions, we would not be able to at that particular time...

I can think of a few...

Prom

School Athletic Banquets

School Music Department performances

etc etc etc...

This brings up something I thought about, provoked by this thread.

If a school rents a ballroom for a prom event, what does that do to your carry status? Ordinarily, you are fine in a hotel room because you are renting those premises for your use. If a school is renting the banquet hall, does that preclude you from carrying legally, as the "school-sponsored event" takes place in the same facility that you are staying? In reading the law, I would think yes. This doesn't seem right, though. If this is true, I guess I'd have to check all my hotel bookings in advance to make sure there's no school banquet or dance going on.

TxBlonde · Post by **TxBlonde** » Thu May 10, 2007 9:28 am

That is a good question.

And what about high school reunions.

Mine in coming up in a year

seamusTX · Post by **seamusTX** » Thu May 10, 2007 9:32 am

The exact text of the law is

any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted,

Taken literally, that would seem to mean that the entire-building is off-limits for the duration of the event.

However, to get in trouble, you would first of all have to come to the attention of the police, and the police officer on the scene would have to put two and two together to make an arrest under this law. I have never heard of it happening.

It's like violating PC 46.02 by picking up a handgun in a gun shop. It just doesn't happen.

- Jim

NcongruNt · Post by **NcongruNt** » Thu May 10, 2007 9:45 am

TxBlonde wrote:That is a good question.

And what about high school reunions.

Mine in coming up in a year

Generally, high school reunions are organized by alumni and not an official school-sponsored event. My 10-year reunion was at a place called Sholz Garten (the oldest business in Texas - http://www.scholzgarten.net/), and had alcohol. I'm most certain that it was a 51% venue and I wouldn't have been able to carry any way. That same fact would have excluded it from being a school-sponsored event. If your reunion isn't at a school facility, I think you're probably safe unless it's a 51% venue.

Jacob Staff · Post by **Jacob Staff** » Thu May 10, 2007 9:49 am

stevie_d_64 wrote:Technically this is right on...

But lets say I am in downtown Houston at 611 Walker (Public Works) running plans and getting city engineer sign-offs...

Due to the changes and compramises back in 2005, I am allowed to carry inside that city building...I have done so everytime I go there...You are required (reluctantly, but I do it) to ID and sign in to be specially badged (reluctantly, but I accept it)...

"SteyrM40" (an old PDO friend on mine) and I have probably been exchanging the same "red" badge at 611 Walker for the last couple of years...I believe we may actually be the only two CHL'ers in the entire Houston area to ever, ever go through the gauntlet of this procedure since the change in 2005...

Why??? Because we can, and in this case we should...

Stevie, when you where the "red" badge, does anyone besides the security guard signing you in even notice the difference?

There is a sign saying you are not allowed to go to a meeting. Is this for a large public meeting or does this cover individual meetings?

Post by **Charles L. Cotton** » Thu May 10, 2007 9:56 am

I believe Sludge is correct. Implicit in the statute is that the school owns the "grounds," but this is far from clear. This is why I believe the definition of "premises" needs to be clarified and in relation to schools, I also want to see TPC Â§46.03(a)(1) clarified/narrowed as well. However, this may well become moot, if CHL authorization is expanded to exclude them from TPC Â§46.03 as are LEO's, judges, prosecutors, probation officers and others. (My 2009 agenda is already getting full!

)

Chas.