Non-Illuminated Vs. Illuminated Scope

[Abraham]

If I have a light mounted on my AR - wouldn't that (mostly) eliminate the need for an illuminated scope reticle? At this point, I'm considering a non-illuminated 1 - 4 variable power scope.

Plus, I've seen many a recommendation for Aimpoint and only Aimpoint when it comes to red-dot scopes.

I've also seen some other brands that are obvious unworthy of consideration el-cheapos (under a $100.00) but a number in the $300.00 or so range and question why these (though not top of the line) wouldn't be adequate?

While I appreciate the aphorism "Pay me now or Pay me later", I can't help wonder if this Aimpoint and only Aimpoint isn't something of a fan boy philosophy, when mid-range cost others will do the job without failure as a less costly alternative?

Thoughts?

Thanks!

[AEA]

Your light going to light up the target at 200 yards so you can see your non illuminated reticle?

See, it really depends on how much darkness shooting you plan to do and at what approximate range.

And I am +1 on the Aimpoint Sight. I use a CompM4 (non illuminated) 2MOA on a AR-15. And rarely shoot over 100 yards and never in darkness.

Now if I was shooting a bolt action .308, I would consider an illuminated scope for longer ranges.

Also,a red dot sight is just that....a SIGHT (normally not a scope).

[The Annoyed Man]

......I can't help wonder if this Aimpoint and only Aimpoint isn't something of a fan boy philosophy, when mid-range cost others will do the job without failure as a less costly alternative?

Thoughts?

Thanks!

Yes, it is a fanboy thing. There are any number of optics that use a red illuminated dot or reticle that are at least as good, and are certainly better in some applications.

EOTech has at least as much support in the "operator community" (special forces, SWAT, etc.) as does AimPoint. Trijicon makes REALLY good optics with simply amazingly clear glass, that have illuminated reticles/dots. So does Mepro. So does Elcan. And that doesn't count the large array of pretty good quality variable power optics in the 1-4x range that also use illuminated dots/reticles, and which are intended for CQB/Tactical use.

You have to decide what you're going to do with this rifle, and then choose your optic accordingly, and at least some of it will depend on your actually eyesight acuity.....as in, do you need some magnification or not? How versatile do you need it to be? People can make all kinds of recommendations, but if someone makes ONLY one recommendation and tells you don't bother with any other brand but his, then that person has a closed mind and doesn't really know. He may have answered his question, but not yours.

[Abraham]

First, let me say thanks for the responses.

AEA,

"Your light going to light up the target at 200 yards so you can see your non illuminated reticle?"

No.

Obviously, I don't under the physics of how an illuminated reticle works and that's my ultimate goal. Sigh...I've researched it and apparently my hard head can't seem to absorb such understanding...

As for shooting in darkness - I have no plan, but if zombies are found roaming in my rather large back yard at zero dark thirty... my mounted light should do the trick. It has on my .17 cal when I've had to eliminate some yard damaging varmints at nights using 3-9 variable, non-illuminated scope.

Thanks for the tip - red dot = sight, not scope. I'll remember.

TAM,

"the large array of pretty good quality variable power optics in the 1-4x range that also use illuminated dots/reticles" is what I'm currently interested in.

Plus, I'm interested in a Red Dot sight of mid or less range in cost that will do the job without failing, as I'd actually like to get one of these too.

As I've no experience with a Red Dot sight, I've no idea if it'll work for me once I use it. (eyesight degrading with cataract surgery required sometime in the next six months to three years according the my optometrist) so I wouldn't want to get a top shelf model.

Does my approach make sense?

I dunno...

[Dadtodabone]

While not a fanboy, I belive there are advantages to the Aimpoint:
1. Battery Life - 30 to 50,000 hours depending on model. We know that fine motor skills degrade during stress, with Aimpoint circuitry you need never turn the sight off, thereby negating the need to find and push a little button on the side or back of the sight to bring it in to play. Yes, training will minimize that problem, building muscle memory, are you prepared to spend the time running drills to acquire the skill set and maintain it? With the Aimpoint just replace the battery every 3 to 5 years. I replace mine on my birthday every year, I know it will be on when I pick up the rifle.
2. Illumination Control - the knob is really simple to use and has positive lock/detent feature that prevents accidental/incidental changes in dot brightness. I personally am not a fan of push button controls(closet Luddite I guess)especially those that can be activated by clothing/equip't, handling, or terrain.
3. Factory Mounts - that come with the sight allow lower 3rd co-witness for buis. You can spend more money on a mount and the PRO QRP 2, as an example, looks clunky, but it's rock solid, won't damage your rail and it's included in the price of the sight. I've also heard that the knob can snag on equip't when utilizing a single point sling. With other sights the mounts that allow co-witness are an additional expense.
4. Size/Weight/Durability - I don't believe there is a farthings difference in durability between a Trij ACOG, Aimpoint , or EOtech. Compare the size and weight that is a factor of that durability.
I currently have a 1.1-4 short dot, a TA01 w/buis, a PRO, and a Comp M3. All of them fill a different role, well not the PRO I just couldn't resist the $389.00 price.

[The Annoyed Man]

Most red dots....at least the better ones...are what are called a "reflex sight." There is an internal laser that projects a red dot onto the optic's glass, and that is the dot that you see when you look through the optic, but someone on the downrange end cannot see it. These scopes are parallax-free. Here is a good description of parallax and how it affects your view through the optic: http://www.opticstalk.com/what-exactly- ... c5026.html. Since these red dot optics are parallax-free, none of this will affect your shooting, and no matter how much your eye shifts around behind the optic, the red dot will always be over the point of aim. You really have to see it to fully understand it. Aimpoints are built this way. But the aiming device inside the optic doesn't have to be a red dot. EOTech's also are reflex sights, but their aiming device is not a simple red dot, but rather it is a red dot centered in a red circle with "ticks" at top, bottom, left, and right. This reticle can actually be used for ranging, and it is still invisible to the target. There are other red dot optics which I mentioned above, but they all have the advantages of no parallax issues, rapid sight picture acquisition, and pretty long battery life. On the other hand, if the battery goes down, you have no sight.

Variable power scopes....in fact any fixed power magnified optic, will be susceptible to parallax. This is not a big deal under most circumstances, but it can slightly delay your acquisition of a sight picture because you have to get your eye right behind the scope to be properly aligned on the target. With a variable power optic turned down to 1X, you eliminate most of that. The advantage to the variable power optics is that they usually have a reticle that provides for ranging options. They also give you some practical hunting options if you care to use your AR for that. You can hunt with a red dot, but just because you can hit a man-sized target at 300 yards with an Aimpoint doesn't mean you should use one for deer hunting at that distance. A 4MOA dot means that the dot will be covering a 12" circle on the target animal at 300, and you don't really know where your bullet is going to land within that circle, particularly since even good expensive AR15s are rarely good for more than about 2 MOA unless they are a fat-barreled varmint rifle.

I don't have the time to repost all of this information, but if you check this post of mine (and the rest of the thread), there is some good information about mid-priced optics choices: viewtopic.php?p=820635#p820635" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[johncanfield]

If I have a light mounted on my AR - wouldn't that (mostly) eliminate the need for an illuminated scope reticle? At this point, I'm considering a non-illuminated 1 - 4 variable power scope.

I was thinking about a light for my Bushmaster .308 (hog/zombie hunting) and somebody pointed out the smoke from a discharge would be illuminated from the light making a follow-up shot difficult. I have a Trijicon AccuPoint 2.5-10x56 with illumination which will work well for low light situations (great scope by the way but it's pricy like all good glass.)

[Abraham]

Some wise man somewhere on this site said and I'm paraphrasing: Those new to AR's want to hang all kinds of gadgets on their new baby. Think and re-think that idea.

That's what I'm doing.

Haven't bought a single appurtenance (I love that word and rarely get to use it) yet, but I'm really, really eyeballing optics.

Often,I look at a scope or red dot sight and think, yeah, that's the one. Then I read the reviews and darn if some don't kick that item smack in the ribs, I sigh and go back to looking at the list.

Mostly, it's paralysis through analysis - but, at least I haven't bought the wrong thing...yet.

Ironically, the one thing I was ready to buy today is the Bushnell 1-4x24 AR Optics 30mm Rifle Scope & Mount Kit (after reviewing TAM's scope list - thanks TAM) from SWFA. I was certain this scope would be well reviewed.

Alas, not only are there no reviews on this scope, they haven't found their way into gun writer's hands or store yet...

I was told by SWFA they'd be in by mid-summer. I asked, so, perhaps by Labor Day, eh? I can wait. Answer: Dunno!

Arrrrggghhh! I really don't care to be a beta tester.

Actually, all this research is kinda fun and it's too darn hot to shoot anyway. Plus, I'm injured and can't in any case. Ye old back has me financing a Ferrari for my Chiropractor with my three visits a week every week for some time now.

So, I'm slowly getting fat since I can't exercise except for back strengthening weenie exercises.

Grumble, grumble...

[AdioSS]

Good thread. Since I'm trying to work with different guns than ARs, it has been tough figuring out what to go with.