warrantless searches and vehicles

[carlson1]

I'd never give consent, but short of really, REALLY extreme circumstances, I'm not going to fight a cop on the street, either . . . I'd much rather have my lawyer do it in a courtroom.

That is THE ANSWER! The search may be ILLEGAL, but setting on the side of the road is no place to decide the issue.

[stevie_d_64]

In a 2-1 decision, the Court found that police in a Dallas suburb did not have probable cause when they searched the truck of JEFFREY L. ESTEP in turned up a pistol shut in a case.

Estep sued three Garland, Texas police officers over the March 29, 1993 search and his subsequent arrest. He had been initially stopped for speeding, according to the court record.

The vehicle also contained a camouflage jacket, according to the court. Estep heard one of the officers tell another officer that he suspected a weapon had been present because of the NRA sticker.

The panel’s majority wrote, “If the presence of an NRA sticker and camouflage gear in a vehicle could be used by an officer to conclude he was in danger, half the pickups in the state of Texas would be subject to a vehicle search.�

- Jim[/quote]

I wonder if a certain member here is related to this person...

This looks like a coincidence, but the name is so unique I have to wonder...

We'll see...

[seamusTX]

I wonder if a certain member here is related to this person...

I don't know; but Tom told me that his family has been in the U.S. for hundreds of years and in Texas for a long time, so there may be quite a few of them.

- Jim

[Will938]

So a couple years ago I was with my friends testing out our new gokart we put together. We went up to the local college at about 9PM when everyone was gone and took it for a spin in a huge empty parking lot. There was Campus PD but they were cool, helped us out when it broke down.

A couple nights later one friend and I came back for another round and long story short the same cop who helped us earlier detained us. I didn't think it was a big deal, just making sure we weren't up to no good. He had me sit on my tailgate and said "I'm going to search your vehicle". I understood that to mean I had no say in the matter and replied "OK." Which was dumb because it could mean that I understood him or that I agreed that he could do it. After being an idiot and following his trap right into several answers I didn't actually understand ("didn't you see the closed campus sign?" yeah I noticed it...several seconds ago...laying on the ground in the grass), my friend and I both ended up with tickets for Criminal Trespass, and the only thing that aggravated me was that big fat check on "consented to vehicle search".

Little did he know that I'm kind of a big deal Made a call the next day and got the charges dropped for both of us.

Here we are the first night we got it running.

[srothstein]

The original question was answered pretty well in the posted link. It has some general points covering inventories and vehicle searches. There are some things you may not be aware of that you might want to know, however.

In general, an officer can perform an inventory of a vehicle he is impounding. The purpose of the inventory is to locate any valuable property which the police are assuming responsibility for. This is to prevent the false claims against the police of missing property. As such, the police can inventory anywhere in the car that might contain valuables, including locked containers.

There are lots of rules on these inventories to prevent the exact kind of fishing expedition that was referred to. Among the limits is that the inventory must be an actual inventory, must be performed according to written procedure, and the officer must have a valid reason for impounding the car. For example, if there is another legal driver present who the operator/owner will allow to drive the car, it cannot be impounded. If a relative will come get the car, in a reasonable time, it cannot be impounded. If the owner is willing to assume the responsibility for the car and wants to leave it legally parked at the scene, it cannot be impounded. Note that legally parked means just that in a legal space without the time limit of a meter and not posing any type of traffic hazard.

But, you might not be aware of exactly what can get you arrested in Texas. If an officer stops you for having defective equipment, such as a blown out license plate light, you can be legally arrested. This means you can be booked into the county jail for this offense. For almost any traffic offense, you can be arrested. There are only three times in the state where an officer does not have discretion on an arrest. He MUST arrest for a violation of a protective order committed in his presence, and he CANNOT arrest for speeding or having an open container of alcoholic beverage unless he first offers a chance to sign a ticket. This means he can let you go with filing charges for a shooting or arrest for any other traffic offense, even as minor as the one I posted above.

Then, there are other ways to impound a car without an arrest. An officer can impound a car parked in such a manner as to create a hazard or obstruct traffic. I think we all knew that one, but he can also impound for nay violation that is not correctable on the spot, whether he arrests or not. The officer basically can arrest to stop an illegally operated car, in other words. Since the officer does not sell insurance, tags, or perform inspections, he can impound a car for one of those violations without arresting the driver at the time. Same with a person with no driver's license. All he needs in these cases is a policy allowing it and many cities have passed these ordinances lately. Courts have upheld these impoundments as legal.

As far as consent goes, I always advise people I know to clearly state that they are not consenting to a search but to never argue or fight the cop. As several people have said, that fight is for the courtroom. You will not win on the street. As a matter of fact, the law specifically states you cannot resist the search even if it is illegal.

[ElGato]

I wonder if a certain member here is related to this person...

I don't know; but Tom told me that his family has been in the U.S. for hundreds of years and in Texas for a long time, so there may be quite a few of them.

- Jim

Anyone with the name will be kin to me, unless they are descendant of someone who was adopted. Some Estep's are actually McCoy's.

[John]

I travel a good deal on 59 from Sugar Land to Victoria to Corpus. Hardly a trip goes by without seeing someone on the side of the road, standing and arms folded, watching state troopers digging around in their car or trunk. Sometimes they'll have all of their belongings spread out on the side of the road.

Since the "person of interest" is not typically hand cuffed, I assume them all to be consent searches. 59 is a pretty well known drug corridor, so I also assume this to be drug interdiction. Personally, I’ve not been stopped on this route and I’ve been traveling it for years. Could it be that they are profiling?

Anyway, the point is a heck of a lot of vehicles get searched on 59 in south texas.

[CHL/LEO]

Could it be that they are profiling?

You can pretty well bet they're profiling. If it's a known drug corridor route they'll have intel on specific vehicles to be watching for or they have a pretty well defined set of parameters in general on what type of vehicle to stop.

Criminal profiling is totally legal and a well used tactic to fight crime. Lots of DPS troopers, along with most Drug Task Force teams and Port of Entry ICE agents are experts at it. The last thing they want to be doing is wasting their time performing an extensive and lengthy search which turns up nothing.

[KBCraig]

The purpose of the inventory is to locate any valuable property which the police are assuming responsibility for. This is to prevent the false claims against the police of missing property.

Great post, but I want to make a semantic distinction. Where you say "purpose of the inventory", I would say "legal justification for". Because the truth is, an inventory does not prevent claims, false or otherwise, for missing property unless the inventory is done jointly and the owner signs it and acknowledges that it is accurate.

Unless the owner signs off on the inventory as accurate, they can always claim that the valuables were in the car before, but were missing from the inventory. I suspect the success of such claims will vary wildly from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

Thanks for the reminder about the huge latitude given to Texas officers when it comes to arrest or impounding. I do not care for the "he needed arrestin'!" justification, because it can be, and sometimes is, abused. I think it's a good thing that such arrests are rare, but the danger in the law is what can be done, not what is routinely done.

Kevin

[tomneal]

John wrote:

Hardly a trip goes by without seeing someone on the side of the road, standing and arms folded, watching state troopers digging around in their car or trunk. Sometimes they'll have all of their belongings spread out on the side of the road.

I have seen the same thing on I35 South of San Antonio, I10, and other freeways. There seem to be a high percentage of brown people being searched. I find offensive.

The "War on Drugs" is worse than the "Drug Problem".

Or maybe they are searching for smuggled freon or high flow towlets.

[KBCraig]

John wrote:

Hardly a trip goes by without seeing someone on the side of the road, standing and arms folded, watching state troopers digging around in their car or trunk. Sometimes they'll have all of their belongings spread out on the side of the road.

I have seen the same thing on I35 South of San Antonio, I10, and other freeways. There seem to be a high percentage of brown people being searched. I find offensive.

When I said the same thing about seeing such stops every time I travel US-59 and I-30, someone accused me of having "biased 'facts'".

The "War on Drugs" is worse than the "Drug Problem".

Or maybe they are searching for smuggled freon or high flow towlets.

Absolutely.

[txinvestigator]

John wrote:

Hardly a trip goes by without seeing someone on the side of the road, standing and arms folded, watching state troopers digging around in their car or trunk. Sometimes they'll have all of their belongings spread out on the side of the road.

I have seen the same thing on I35 South of San Antonio, I10, and other freeways. There seem to be a high percentage of brown people being searched. I find offensive.

When I said the same thing about seeing such stops every time I travel US-59 and I-30, someone accused me of having "biased 'facts'".

The "War on Drugs" is worse than the "Drug Problem".

Or maybe they are searching for smuggled freon or high flow towlets.

Absolutely.

Actually what you said was that "tossing" or searching vehicles is "common" because you see it happen on those roads. It may be common along that drug transportation corridor, but it is not common in general.

[txinvestigator]

John wrote:

Hardly a trip goes by without seeing someone on the side of the road, standing and arms folded, watching state troopers digging around in their car or trunk. Sometimes they'll have all of their belongings spread out on the side of the road.

I have seen the same thing on I35 South of San Antonio, I10, and other freeways. There seem to be a high percentage of brown people being searched. I find offensive.

The "War on Drugs" is worse than the "Drug Problem".

Or maybe they are searching for smuggled freon or high flow towlets.

Yeah, lets just legalize the stuff.

What specifically do you find offensive? Drug Law enforcement, or the fact that the "brown people" seem to be a disportionately higher percentage of drug runners in that particular area?

Would it be offensive if the TSA actually screened young males of apparant Middle Eastern descent with more scrunity?

[tomneal]

TXI said:

Would it be offensive if the TSA actually screened young males of apparant Middle Eastern descent with more scrunity?

These guys are trying to kill Americans wholesale.

The druggies are just screwing up their own lives and neighborhoods.

[anygunanywhere]

TXI said:

Would it be offensive if the TSA actually screened young males of apparant Middle Eastern descent with more scrunity?

These guys are trying to kill Americans wholesale.

The druggies are just screwing up their own lives and neighborhoods.

You must not look at the situation on the Texas-Mexico border the same as I do. They are not just screwing up their own lives and neighborhoods.

It will not be long until the screwing up reaches my neighborhood, and from what I see and hear, they are doing some wholesale killing of Americans too.

Anygun