When to draw? Mindset and SB-299.

[RoyGBiv]

Effective 1-September, the intentional display of a handgun has a new friend in the recently enrolled SB-299.
On that date it it will be a defense to prosecution to display a handgun in situations where "use of force or deadly force" would have been justified.
Previously, the intentional display of a handgun was limited to "deadly force" situations only.

I am considering recalibrating my "when to draw" mindset in light of this change in law.

Your input is appreciated.

Emphasis mine.

http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/tlodocs/ ... 00299F.htm
BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF TEXAS:
SECTION 1. Subsections (a) and (h), Section 46.035, Penal
Code, are amended to read as follows:
(a) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person
under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,
and intentionally displays [fails to conceal] the handgun in plain
view of another person in a public place.
(h) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a) that
the actor, at the time of the commission of the offense, displayed
the handgun under circumstances in which the actor would have been
justified in the use of force or deadly force under Chapter 9.

[o b juan]

I have an idea that
PC 9.04 coverd that back in 1995 when the CHL Law was established "By the production of a weapon or otherwise."

Is this a duplication re-affirming?

[TexasCajun]

Why is any adjustment in 'when to draw' necessary? Sure, the new law gives us a bit more leeway. But that doesn't mean we should necessarily use it. My mindset from before day 1 has always been that my gun comes out only when it's time to use it. I don't consider display to be very effective at deescalation. I will do everything that I can to make sure that my gun as an absolute last resort.

[daniel2002p]

^^^ I agree with the above... while this is just me if my gun ever leaves my holster it will be to discharge some lead from the barrel. Just my $0.02

--Daniel

[txglock21]

It's funny you brought this up because just two days ago a friend of mine came home from his daily walk to find a guy breaking into the back window of his house. My friend who also has his CHL, pulled his weapon and ordered the very surprised BG to lay face down on the ground and put his hands on his head. He held the guy there until the local police showed up (about 5 minutes). He said his hands were shaking so bad he almost couldn't dial 911 and almost dropped his gun. I'm guessing legally he could have just shot the guy and would have been justified, but in my opinion, he did the right thing and was only out a broken window on his house. The police told him he did great in that situation. I'm telling this not to say your thoughts of "if my gun comes out it's holster, I'm shooting" is wrong, just giving you an actual situation where it wasn't nessasary to fire. And just to add, the police only found a small pocket knife when they searched the guy, not that it matters. I'm waiting to see if his story comes up in the next NRA Armed Citizen. lol

[Robert*PPS]

I often ponder my "when to draw" policy. Even though the law affords me justification in more situations, I've decided that I will only draw in the face of imminent death or serious bodily injury to myself or someone close. I've decided this because I believe that is the only situation where, if my draw and most likely fire results in a lengthy and costly legal process, I would feel that my actions were worth it. That's just my personal policy.

I also pray everyday that I never have to draw...

[Bang4Buck]

It's funny you brought this up because just two days ago a friend of mine came home from his daily walk to find a guy breaking into the back window of his house. My friend who also has his CHL, pulled his weapon and ordered the very surprised BG to lay face down on the ground and put his hands on his head. He held the guy there until the local police showed up (about 5 minutes). He said his hands were shaking so bad he almost couldn't dial 911 and almost dropped his gun. I'm guessing legally he could have just shot the guy and would have been justified, but in my opinion, he did the right thing and was only out a broken window on his house. The police told him he did great in that situation. I'm telling this not to say your thoughts of "if my gun comes out it's holster, I'm shooting" is wrong, just giving you an actual situation where it wasn't nessasary to fire. And just to add, the police only found a small pocket knife when they searched the guy, not that it matters. I'm waiting to see if his story comes up in the next NRA Armed Citizen. lol

Very good example of how a small change in the law works in our favor. I like the idea of having a bit more wiggle room. Depending on the situation, just because I draw my weapon doesn't mean I would feel I have to pull the trigger.

[txglock21]

I was asked by a PM to give more details on my friend's experience. I don't know all of the specifics because I live in North Texas and this happened in the San Antonio area. My friend called me last night to tell me about it. I don't feel comfortable giving his name out without his permission, but to answer the question that was asked in the PM about how the officers handled coming up onto the situation of a person holding a gun on another person, he (my friend) did say he was on the phone with 911 the whole time and did inform the operator that he was "holding" the guy at gun point and she told him that she would make the officers aware of this. They did come into his back yard with their guns drawn and told my friend to place his weapon on the ground and take 5 steps back towards the one officer as the other moved to the BG. He said they asked him if he was the homeowner and asked for ID, at which point, he gave them his DL and CHL. They then handcuffed and frisked the BG and he said they then allowed him to holster his gun. He said they were very supportive because he was still shaken and they told him to go sit down while they took care of the BG. In my view everyone did everything right (except the dummy that decided to burglarize a house). As I said before, I don't know all the specifics, but I hope this answers your question Chasm11. (Sorry if I misspelled your user name).

[C-dub]

I was asked by a PM to give more details on my friend's experience. I don't know all of the specifics because I live in North Texas and this happened in the San Antonio area. My friend called me last night to tell me about it. I don't feel comfortable giving his name out without his permission, but to answer the question that was asked in the PM about how the officers handled coming up onto the situation of a person holding a gun on another person, he (my friend) did say he was on the phone with 911 the whole time and did inform the operator that he was "holding" the guy at gun point and she told him that she would make the officers aware of this. They did come into his back yard with their guns drawn and told my friend to place his weapon on the ground and take 5 steps back towards the one officer as the other moved to the BG. He said they asked him if he was the homeowner and asked for ID, at which point, he gave them his DL and CHL. They then handcuffed and frisked the BG and he said they then allowed him to holster his gun. He said they were very supportive because he was still shaken and they told him to go sit down while they took care of the BG. In my view everyone did everything right (except the dummy that decided to burglarize a house). As I said before, I don't know all the specifics, but I hope this answers your question Chasm11. (Sorry if I misspelled your user name).

Excellent choice of a screen name.

I do not automatically think that just because my gun comes out it will be fired. I do think, for me however, that if it comes out I will be justified if I do fire. I also do not think I will be re-evaluating my line. It's kinda like a judge several years back said about pornography. I might not be able to clearly define it, but I'll know it when I see it. There are some obvious circumstances where I will draw my gun and some others that are a little more ambiguous, but I'll know it when it happens. Since I am not an inherently violent person and don't want to hurt anyone if I can avoid it, I think it will be very clear to me when that will be.

[Excaliber]

I was asked by a PM to give more details on my friend's experience. I don't know all of the specifics because I live in North Texas and this happened in the San Antonio area. My friend called me last night to tell me about it. I don't feel comfortable giving his name out without his permission, but to answer the question that was asked in the PM about how the officers handled coming up onto the situation of a person holding a gun on another person, he (my friend) did say he was on the phone with 911 the whole time and did inform the operator that he was "holding" the guy at gun point and she told him that she would make the officers aware of this. They did come into his back yard with their guns drawn and told my friend to place his weapon on the ground and take 5 steps back towards the one officer as the other moved to the BG. He said they asked him if he was the homeowner and asked for ID, at which point, he gave them his DL and CHL. They then handcuffed and frisked the BG and he said they then allowed him to holster his gun. He said they were very supportive because he was still shaken and they told him to go sit down while they took care of the BG. In my view everyone did everything right (except the dummy that decided to burglarize a house). As I said before, I don't know all the specifics, but I hope this answers your question Chasm11. (Sorry if I misspelled your user name).

This is a good time to think through how you might want to handle a similar situation if you were to find yourself in it. Here are a number of things you might consider, several of which were done right in this case:

1. Get the bad guy down on the ground and get at least 8 feet away and behind him to where he can't see you. If he tries to look at you, order him to look away. Have him interlace his fingers behind his head with the palms of his hands out and have him cross his ankles. This makes it much more difficult to push off from the ground to attack you before you can react.

2. If he runs, let him go. Your problem is over once he ceases to be a threat to you. The legal follow up is what police agencies employ investigators for.

3. Call 911 and stay on the phone with dispatch. Give them descriptions of yourself and the BG in case things go south before police get there, and ask them to let you know when police are on scene and beginning their approach.

4. Suggest the safest route for police to take to your position so they don't turn a corner or come out of an alley or through a gate and find themselves between you and the BG with you pointing a gun at them.

5. The pucker factor on both sides is high in these situations. As police approach, holster the gun or at least point it at the ground and don't raise it. This way if police show up or give a command from an unexpected direction, you're a lot less likely to turn toward them with a gun leveled at them.

6. Obey commands and try to communicate that you're the GG until the police and you get on the same page.

[TexasCajun]

I guess I'm guilty of thinking in only one dimension (again). The example above is excellent in that it actually happened and turned out rather well. Thanks for sharing that.

One question though. Would anything in the amended law change what happened from either the GG or the LEO perspective?

[jmra]

My understanding is the change in wording was needed to restore the original intention of the law after a bad ruling by a court in N. Texas (IIRC).

[RoyGBiv]

I purposely left it to the readers imagination when I wrote the OP. I fully expected lots of folks to say "nothing would change", perhaps a few would say otherwise, but, now that we've let this question sink in for a day or so, let me explain more clearly what was running through my head when I posted this...

Over the past 15 years or so (I think my original NC CWP was 1997 ?), I've encountered two situations where I was certain I was being assessed as a potential victim. In both cases, multiple (2 and then 3) potential assailants were involved. Both times I was armed. In each case I managed to convince the potential assailants, through body language and verbally (in one case a verbal command), that there were easier targets and they should move on. Neither case rose to the level of any crime being committed upon me.

In both instances, if the potential attackers wanted to take me on, they were close enough that I would not have had time to draw my weapon ahead of them making physical contact. Although I managed to dissuade them by coming across as someone who would fight back, once they were inside 20 feet or so, and had not presented sufficient threat to rise to the level of "deadly force", I had no defense to prosecution if I chose to draw my weapon. The thugs could have reported me to the police and I would have been arrested.

Until SB-299, TX 46.035 and TX PC 9.04 did not match. As was mentioned, TX Courts found that a person could be prosecuted under 46.035 for displaying a weapon before the incident reached the level of Deadly Force. This discrepancy, and similar issues with NC law created the circumstances where on two occasions there were criminals (potential) inside my "personal perimeter" and it was probably too late for my gun to be employed effectively. (This is difficult to describe in words and make it into a broader scenario.... For the purpose of this discussion please try to imagine how this COULD happen, rather than focusing on how it can be avoided. - That's a separate discussion. At least I'd like it to be a separate discussion.)

I've dealt with this by changing tactics, certainly.... A wider perimeter before beginning verbal interactions, greater situational awareness, quicker movement away from oncoming trouble. But until now, I have not had the latitude to consider using a weapon, the threat of force as described by PC 9.04, should I find myself in a similar situation in the future...

Would I, should I, draw earlier?
Let's face it folks, a determined criminal (or group of) that doesn't declare their intentions until they are inside your personal space makes employing a weapon in self defense difficult. If you're standing face to face with a bad guy, your still-concealed weapon is going to do little good for you. (I'm oversimplifying, yes. Again, rather than tell me how to improve tactics, please focus your comments on the question of when to draw.)

SB-299 provides the latitude to change tactics, however slightly. Should I?

For further reading, please consider this document: (link will open PDF file) http://www.safeism.com/pdfs/SNContacts.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Bang4Buck]

I purposely left it to the readers imagination when I wrote the OP. I fully expected lots of folks to say "nothing would change", perhaps a few would say otherwise, but, now that we've let this question sink in for a day or so, let me explain more clearly what was running through my head when I posted this...

Over the past 15 years or so (I think my original NC CWP was 1997 ?), I've encountered two situations where I was certain I was being assessed as a potential victim. In both cases, multiple (2 and then 3) potential assailants were involved. Both times I was armed. In each case I managed to convince the potential assailants, through body language and verbally (in one case a verbal command), that there were easier targets and they should move on. Neither case rose to the level of any crime being committed upon me.

In both instances, if the potential attackers wanted to take me on, they were close enough that I would not have had time to draw my weapon ahead of them making physical contact. Although I managed to dissuade them by coming across as someone who would fight back, once they were inside 20 feet or so, and had not presented sufficient threat to rise to the level of "deadly force", I had no defense to prosecution if I chose to draw my weapon. The thugs could have reported me to the police and I would have been arrested.

Until SB-299, TX 46.035 and TX PC 9.04 did not match. As was mentioned, TX Courts found that a person could be prosecuted under 46.035 for displaying a weapon before the incident reached the level of Deadly Force. This discrepancy, and similar issues with NC law created the circumstances where on two occasions there were criminals (potential) inside my "personal perimeter" and it was probably too late for my gun to be employed effectively. (This is difficult to describe in words and make it into a broader scenario.... For the purpose of this discussion please try to imagine how this COULD happen, rather than focusing on how it can be avoided. - That's a separate discussion. At least I'd like it to be a separate discussion.)

I've dealt with this by changing tactics, certainly.... A wider perimeter before beginning verbal interactions, greater situational awareness, quicker movement away from oncoming trouble. But until now, I have not had the latitude to consider using a weapon, the threat of force as described by PC 9.04, should I find myself in a similar situation in the future...

Would I, should I, draw earlier?
Let's face it folks, a determined criminal (or group of) that doesn't declare their intentions until they are inside your personal space makes employing a weapon in self defense difficult. If you're standing face to face with a bad guy, your still-concealed weapon is going to do little good for you. (I'm oversimplifying, yes. Again, rather than tell me how to improve tactics, please focus your comments on the question of when to draw.)

SB-299 provides the latitude to change tactics, however slightly. Should I?

For further reading, please consider this document: (link will open PDF file) http://www.safeism.com/pdfs/SNContacts.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Great document. Thank you for sharing!

[texanjoker]

Interesting information. I won't claim to be an expert for that law and this is not legal advice, but I was taught to draw my weapon "in anticipation of danger."