Things you have wondered about guns, but have never asked...

[srothstein]

I have enjoyed most of the answers you received, and it seems like only question 2 really needs any more explanation. I would guess (and I am not sure) that it has more to do with barrel length and muzzle velocity than anything else. I know that the shorter a barrel gets, the less muzzle velocity you have. I would then further guess that a rifle round fired from a short pistol barrel would not get moving fast enough to be as effective as rounds designed for the pistol. Of course, there are pistols chambered for rifle rounds, notably the Thompson-Center Contender, and they all have fairly long barrels (for pistols that is) which might be used to support my position.

I am sure that changing the powder in the round could make a rifle round effective in a pistol length barrel, but then it might raise pressures too high in a rifle and you would need, as a manufacturer, to stock two different rounds for the caliber and still have a potential liability issue for improper use.

Further support for this argument would be the history of cartridge ammunition. Early on, rifles and pistols were both chambers for the same round, such as the 38-40. You can still find some rifles chambered for pistol rounds (.45 LC, 44 Mag, and 357 mag come to mind). Note that these are considered relatively short ranged for rifles, IMO. As we refined weapons and ammunition, it developed into more specialized usage and each separated into their respective areas.

[gigag04]

1 - precision barrels can be shot out. But the bullet is not "rubbing" against a hardened steel barrel very long. If you added up the "time" that a bullet was in friction contact with a barrel over thousands of rounds I would probably be a few seconds.


2 - easier to get a heavier bullet but still have enough power to hit someone hard with it. A rifle uses smaller diameter rounds because of the added barrel length making the billet faster and thus creating more perceived recoil.

3 - the bullet takes time to accelerate through the barrel like a rocket which decreases the moment of inertia.

4 - Supply and demand, as well as hours required to hand make/fit.

[The Annoyed Man]

I'll start with my displays of ignorance:

1. I understand that lead and copper are soft, but I cannot understand how barrels are able to tolerate tens of thousands of rounds without quickly wearing out. It's because the copper and lead are soft, and they are softer under heat. They are definitely softer than steel. Abrasion from particulates like carbon are more likely to wear out barrels than the metals with which the bullets are made.

2. I don't understand why most center fire handguns are chambered for big slow bullets instead of small fast bullets, like rifles. Because even if cartridge size weren't an issue, controlling a 800 ft-lb .44 magnum is hard enough.....imagine controlling a 2,820 ft-lb handgun. See #3 for the rest of the answer.

3. I don't understand how projectiles fired from my magnum rifles can hit with 3,000+ feet pounds of energy, but the stock does not hit my shoulder with the same amount (though it often feels like it does!). Don't confuse energy with velocity. Your bullet weighs maybe 180 grains. Your rifle weighs maybe 59,500 grains (8.5 lb). Your bullet's muzzle velocity is maybe 2,960 fps. Your rifle weighs 330.5 times as much as the bullet. Physics says that the reaction must be equal to the action. The rearward velocity of the buttstock would be the same as the muzzle velocity of the bullet if the gun weighed the same as the bullet, but it doesn't. In other words, the variables of mass and velocity are not the same on both ends of the transaction. The rifle weighs 330.5 times the bullet weight. Divide the muzzle velocity of the bullet by 330.5, and your rifle recoils backward at 9 fps. So you experience the mass of a 59,500 grain object hitting your shoulder at 9 fps, while the buck experiences the mass of a 180 grain object hitting its shoulder at 2960 fps. The math may not be perfect, but the principle is there. In order to keep the balance of energy the same on both sides of the transaction, the variables must result in the same numerical value. If a given variable on Side A of the transaction is much larger than its counterpart on Side B of the transaction, then the multiplier on Side A must be much smaller than its counterpart on Side B to compensate for the difference.

[....edited to remove an unintentional "$" from in front of the "2,960." Force of habit, I guess.....]

4. I don't understand why a good 1911 costs more than a riding lawnmower; it seems like the lawnmower requires more in material costs, and I would expect the engine at least to be built with some significant attention to tolerances. By your analogy, a lawnmower would also cost more than a 5 carat diamond ring. Also, it has to do with the economies of scale. A lawnmower is mass produced on an assembly line. They are made by the millions. A quality 1911 is an entirely hand made piece, manufactured in lower volumes. The lawnmower will save your lawn from the HOA. A 1911 will save your life. Which is worth more?

[jimlongley]

I'll start with my displays of ignorance:

1. I understand that lead and copper are soft, but I cannot understand how barrels are able to tolerate tens of thousands of rounds without quickly wearing out. It's because the copper and lead are soft, and they are softer under heat. They are definitely softer than steel. Abrasion from particulates like carbon are more likely to wear out barrels than the metals with which the bullets are made.

2. I don't understand why most center fire handguns are chambered for big slow bullets instead of small fast bullets, like rifles. Because even if cartridge size weren't an issue, controlling a 800 ft-lb .44 magnum is hard enough.....imagine controlling a 2,820 ft-lb handgun. See #3 for the rest of the answer.

3. I don't understand how projectiles fired from my magnum rifles can hit with 3,000+ feet pounds of energy, but the stock does not hit my shoulder with the same amount (though it often feels like it does!). Don't confuse energy with velocity. Your bullet weighs maybe 180 grains. Your rifle weighs maybe 59,500 grains (8.5 lb). Your bullet's muzzle velocity is maybe $2,960 fps. Your rifle weighs 330.5 times as much as the bullet. Physics says that the reaction must be equal to the action. The rearward velocity of the buttstock would be the same as the muzzle velocity of the bullet if the gun weighed the same as the bullet, but it doesn't. In other words, the variables of mass and velocity are not the same on both ends of the transaction. The rifle weighs 330.5 times the bullet weight. Divide the muzzle velocity of the bullet by 330.5, and your rifle recoils backward at 9 fps. So you experience the mass of a 59,500 grain object hitting your shoulder at 9 fps, while the buck experiences the mass of a 180 grain object hitting its shoulder at 2960 fps. The math may not be perfect, but the principle is there. In order to keep the balance of energy the same on both sides of the transaction, the variables must result in the same numerical value. If a given variable on Side A of the transaction is much larger than its counterpart on Side B of the transaction, then the multiplier on Side A must be much smaller than its counterpart on Side B to compensate for the difference.

4. I don't understand why a good 1911 costs more than a riding lawnmower; it seems like the lawnmower requires more in material costs, and I would expect the engine at least to be built with some significant attention to tolerances. By your analogy, a lawnmower would also cost more than a 5 carat diamond ring. Also, it has to do with the economies of scale. A lawnmower is mass produced on an assembly line. They are made by the millions. A quality 1911 is an entirely hand made piece, manufactured in lower volumes. The lawnmower will save your lawn from the HOA. A 1911 will save your life. Which is worth more?

I would also add to #3, that if you allow the rifle to accelerate to the 9fps before it hits your shoulder, it WILL leave a bruise. A good tight hold makes your body part of the recoil mass, and actually reduces felt recoil. I don't really recommend it, but I am sure most rifle shooters, and just about all shotgun shooters, have experienced the pain of not mounting the gun properly and getting slammed in the shoulder for their efforts. I know I have.

[AlaskanInTexas]

Well this has been fun and educational! Makes me wish I had taken more physics and less accounting. I'm still not convinced it costs more to make a 1911 than a riding lawn mower...

[WildBill]

Further support for this argument would be the history of cartridge ammunition. Early on, rifles and pistols were both chambers for the same round, such as the 38-40. You can still find some rifles chambered for pistol rounds (.45 LC, 44 Mag, and 357 mag come to mind). Note that these are considered relatively short ranged for rifles, IMO. As we refined weapons and ammunition, it developed into more specialized usage and each separated into their respective areas.

These older cartridges were developed for black powder rather than the newer smokeless propellant so the pressure are very different.

[gigag04]

Well this has been fun and educational! Makes me wish I had taken more physics and less accounting. I'm still not convinced it costs more to make a 1911 than a riding lawn mower...

It has little to do with the cost of making a single lawn mower, but the cost of being able to produce 200,000 lawn mowers.


Custom 1911s are one-offs. Factored into the end price is parts, labor, prestige, and market demand.

[The Annoyed Man]

Well this has been fun and educational! Makes me wish I had taken more physics and less accounting. I'm still not convinced it costs more to make a 1911 than a riding lawn mower...

It has little to do with the cost of making a single lawn mower, but the cost of being able to produce 200,000 lawn mowers.


Custom 1911s are one-offs. Factored into the end price is parts, labor, prestige, and market demand.

Exactly, which is why I mentioned economies of scale in my previous answer.

[AlaskanInTexas]

Well this has been fun and educational! Makes me wish I had taken more physics and less accounting. I'm still not convinced it costs more to make a 1911 than a riding lawn mower...

It has little to do with the cost of making a single lawn mower, but the cost of being able to produce 200,000 lawn mowers.


Custom 1911s are one-offs. Factored into the end price is parts, labor, prestige, and market demand.

I don't know how "a good 1911" has morphed into a "custom one-off 1911." I am talking something along the lines of a factory Kimber in the $1,200 range. I don't have any data on this, but I would expect to find that more 1911's are produced in a given year than riding lawn mowers. I could be wildly wrong. My personal view is that it costs more to make a riding lawnmower, in terms of materials and labor than a 1911, and that the increased margin on a 1911 is due to lack of supply and to barriers (both legal and reputational) to entry into the 1911 market.

You know you have strung together too many long nights at work, when you start to compare lawnmowers and guns!

[The Annoyed Man]

Well this has been fun and educational! Makes me wish I had taken more physics and less accounting. I'm still not convinced it costs more to make a 1911 than a riding lawn mower...

It has little to do with the cost of making a single lawn mower, but the cost of being able to produce 200,000 lawn mowers.


Custom 1911s are one-offs. Factored into the end price is parts, labor, prestige, and market demand.

I don't know how "a good 1911" has morphed into a "custom one-off 1911." I am talking something along the lines of a factory Kimber in the $1,200 range. I don't have any data on this, but I would expect to find that more 1911's are produced in a given year than riding lawn mowers. I could be wildly wrong. My personal view is that it costs more to make a riding lawnmower, in terms of materials and labor than a 1911, and that the increased margin on a 1911 is due to lack of supply and to barriers (both legal and reputational) to entry into the 1911 market.

You know you have strung together too many long nights at work, when you start to compare lawnmowers and guns!

It could also be product liability insurance. Motorcycle helmets, for instance, have about 20%-25% (last I heard) of their retail cost wrapped up in product liability insurance for the manufacturer.

Also, you must not own or have spent much time shooting a quality 1911.

[AlaskanInTexas]

Also, you must not own or have spent much time shooting a quality 1911.

That, my friend, is unfortunately a very true statement. Someday...

[Dave2]

I've always wondered why so many pistol designs are so similar. Almost every 9mm or greater pistol on the market essentially has the 1911 action. It seems like gunsmiths would get bored after a while and come up with something else just to see how well it works (or doesn't).

[AlaskanInTexas]

I've always wondered why so many pistol designs are so similar. Almost every 9mm or greater pistol on the market essentially has the 1911 action. It seems like gunsmiths would get bored after a while and come up with something else just to see how well it works (or doesn't).

Especially with all the sophisticated engineering tools at their disposal (compared to John Browning who mocked up his designs from wood blocks).

[AlaskanInTexas]

I don't have any data on this, but I would expect to find that more 1911's are produced in a given year than riding lawn mowers. I could be wildly wrong.

I was, in fact, wildly wrong. There have been 2.7 million 1911s built to date. Each year 1.3 million riding mowers are sold (I don't know how that can be, but that is what the infallible Internet has told me).

[TLE2]

I can pay somebody to mow my lawn. Paying someone to build you th John Moses Browning masterpiece that is the 1911 semiautomatic firearm will be substantially more costly and complex.

There are super fast pistol rounds, but unless your being attacked by gophers, they don't work we'll for self defence or CQB. For that you generally want a big honking bullet going just fast enough.