A Comment About Our Educational System

[VMI77]

You gonna argue that we shouldn't force kids to go to school? That's going to work out well for the USA long term.

I don't think that's a difficult argument to make at all in you live in a free country. Of course, it's hypothetical since we don't live in a free country. Still nationwide compulsory education didn't occur until 1918. Up until then individual states made that decision starting with the first state in 1852. I can't imagine Thomas Jefferson, who was a big proponent of an educated electorate, using government coercion to force people into a classroom.

The fundamental basis of the public school system is authoritarianism. It was invented in Prussia, and the reason it was invented there is the same reason it was applied in other nations like the US:

Prussia introduced this model of education so as to produce more obedient soldiers and serfs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_education

The primary lessons taught in the public schools are obedience and conformity.

And just how did children get educated before states in the US adopted the Prussian model? They went to church schools. And just what do you think would happen if there was no compulsory eduction now? Your apparent fear of freedom is that parents will just let their children grow up to be uneducated savages if the government doesn't force them to go to school. This is a rather common view of progressives...they everyone but them is incapable of making intelligent decisions for themselves and their children. It's also the attitude that informs Obamacare.

There is no logical reason that the government need to provide compulsory education any more than there is a logical reason it needs to provide compulsory medical care. Parents are going to take care of their children and see to it that they are educated. The parents that won't do that also won't do it if they have to send their kids to public school. In the end, it all really boils down to parenting. And there are numerous ways to educate children besides applying the Prussian model to non-government schools --most of which work better on the whole than public schools.

If you could demonstrate that public schools have created a better educated people than what existed before them, you might have an argument. But even if that were true, we still have about the worst educational system in the developed world, and rank near the bottom, especially when it comes to math and science.

[VMI77]

You gonna argue that we shouldn't force kids to go to school? That's going to work out well for the USA long term.

Its important to follow the educational juggernaut that is Pakistan...

Huh? Pakistan has compulsory public schools, so, I don't get your point.

[Cedar Park Dad]

don't think that's a difficult argument to make at all in you live in a free country. Of course, it's hypothetical since we don't live in a free country. Still nationwide compulsory education didn't occur until 1918. Up until then individual states made that decision starting with the first state in 1852. I can't imagine Thomas Jefferson, who was a big proponent of an educated electorate, using government coercion to force people into a classroom.

Wait, are you arguing our educational standard should be that there be no requirement to get an education? Please clarify as only 3rd world countries have a no education standard, and thats because they can't afford it.

[Cedar Park Dad]

You gonna argue that we shouldn't force kids to go to school? That's going to work out well for the USA long term.

Its important to follow the educational juggernaut that is Pakistan...

Huh? Pakistan has compulsory public schools, so, I don't get your point.

Maddrasses?

[VMI77]

You gonna argue that we shouldn't force kids to go to school? That's going to work out well for the USA long term.

Its important to follow the educational juggernaut that is Pakistan...

Huh? Pakistan has compulsory public schools, so, I don't get your point.

Maddrasses?

I'm not your encyclopedia.....you can look it up.

[VMI77]

don't think that's a difficult argument to make at all in you live in a free country. Of course, it's hypothetical since we don't live in a free country. Still nationwide compulsory education didn't occur until 1918. Up until then individual states made that decision starting with the first state in 1852. I can't imagine Thomas Jefferson, who was a big proponent of an educated electorate, using government coercion to force people into a classroom.

Wait, are you arguing our educational standard should be that there be no requirement to get an education? Please clarify as only 3rd world countries have a no education standard, and thats because they can't afford it.

Talk about a strawman.......standards have nothing to do with whether or not education should be compulsory. I know, you can't imagine a free country where the government doesn't impose standards and regulate every aspect of life, and fear the chaos of freedom...but yes, the government has no business setting educational standards, and most especially, the federal government. Now, if the government wants to set standards for who it employs, fine.....people can either meet those standards or work somewhere else. And btw, there are already standards that the government didn't create, they're called college entry requirements, and the colleges seem able to all create their own. There are also private employers, all of whom seem to be able to set their own standards for employment.

When you work in the technical field you find that some employers don't accept things like HS diplomas and even college degrees as having met a standard. They administer their own tests which most of those having met your government standards can't pass. The government just screws everything up so the less it is involved in anything the better.

And oh yeah, I forget to mention another potential benefit of eliminating tax draining schools: a big group of people will find private employment teaching, and won't have the same incentive to vote for those who want to raise taxes and grow the government.

[Cedar Park Dad]

So you're recommending a standard not even up to...Pakistan?

[Cedar Park Dad]

[Talk about a strawman.......standards have nothing to do with whether or not education should be compulsory.

So to restate, you're arguing there should be no mandatory education - either private or public? Please cite First World countries with such an interesting non-standard.

I'm all for people having the right to private school. I'm even ok with homeschooling, although I think it a brilliantly bad idea 90% of the time. But no requirement at all?

When you work in the technical field you find that some employers don't accept things like HS diplomas and even college degrees as having met a standard. They administer their own tests which most of those having met your government standards can't pass. The government just screws everything up so the less it is involved in anything the better.

Well, if your argument really is the one above, then you wouldn't pass those either, because concepts like literacy and mathmatics would be anathema to that standard. DO you really want a generation of unschooled kids? How exactly is that going to help the US compete globally?

[mamabearCali]

From what I see we have a generation of uneducated people out there already. We are just paying for babysitting services for them till 18. If you are not in an honors class and are not putting in effort you will not learn how to write even a complete sentence till you are in high school if then. They leave school and they can take tests, but they cannot write a memo or balance a check book. They have no skills and no way to get them.

As our current system is broken, I see no reason not to at least give what VMI said a look.

[cypress9]

Regarding public education -McCarthy was right and until we can weed some out, it hasn't much chance of getting better.
I have cussed him plenty of times but when, in response to Common Core, Perry said Texas children aren't for sale at any price, I stood up and cheered.
Facilities AREN'T the answer. I started to school, riding my horse to a little one-room schoolhouse on the prairie and finished up with a Graduate degree
in Chemical Engineering from a notorious weed-em-out university. One thing I always knew - whatever I got in school, more of the same was on the way
when I got home. One year I got a little carried away in college and the next semester I was a pedestrian again even though I had paid for the car myself.
It's a complex system (spelled mess) but I can't help but think if we got a few vice-principals out and a few parents in things might perk up. When our daughter was in high school we were reminded that we were to provide the kids and the money and they would take it from there. Well they sure have, haven't they?
When our daughter taught school, everything I saw and heard told me mamabear is spot on.

[MotherBear]

From what I see we have a generation of uneducated people out there already. We are just paying for babysitting services for them till 18. If you are not in an honors class and are not putting in effort you will not learn how to write even a complete sentence till you are in high school if then. They leave school and they can take tests, but they cannot write a memo or balance a check book. They have no skills and no way to get them.

As our current system is broken, I see no reason not to at least give what VMI said a look.

[cb1000rider]

I don't think that's a difficult argument to make at all in you live in a free country. Of course, it's hypothetical since we don't live in a free country. Still nationwide compulsory education didn't occur until 1918. Up until then individual states made that decision starting with the first state in 1852. I can't imagine Thomas Jefferson, who was a big proponent of an educated electorate, using government coercion to force people into a classroom.

The primary lessons taught in the public schools are obedience and conformity.

And just how did children get educated before states in the US adopted the Prussian model? They went to church schools. And just what do you think would happen if there was no compulsory eduction now? Your apparent fear of freedom is that parents will just let their children grow up to be uneducated savages if the government doesn't force them to go to school. This is a rather common view of progressives...they everyone but them is incapable of making intelligent decisions for themselves and their children. It's also the attitude that informs Obamacare.

This is too far out in the field for me. We'd don't live in a completely free country. Our government compels us in various forms and fashions.
If you're a proponent for living in a country where education for children isn't mandated, you and I will just have to disagree. Call me Marx, call me a Socialist, if compulsory educated originated from some country with that system of government... It won't change my mind.

Part of why the US has had economic success (relative to other countries) is we have a high degree of educated people here. I don't attribute that education to a public school system, but it's part of an educational chain. And that chain needs to adapt and get better. We're already losing in Math and Science compared to other countries and long term, it will disadvantage us.

I'm absolutely not worried that the lack of a compulsory educational system would have impacted my parents. It wouldn't have. However, where I grew up, it would have impacted a large degree of my neighbors and to a larger degree many of the kids that were economically disadvantaged and could have contributed to the home. Keeping all those kids out of school and in some parts of the country it would be a very significant number, isn't a good thing for this country... Especially if you want to avoid the kind of socialism that you're referencing above.

Would churches pick up the slack? I doubt it. I have concerns a country that only has schools based on religious grounds. I have no objection to parents selecting those schools, but in my exaggerated vision I see creationism taught instead of science, when perhaps a mix of both might be more beneficial...

If you could demonstrate that public schools have created a better educated people than what existed before them, you might have an argument. But even if that were true, we still have about the worst educational system in the developed world, and rank near the bottom, especially when it comes to math and science.

I can certainly show that people are vastly more educated now than they have been in the past. Attributing that to a public school system probably isn't valid.
We hardly have the worst education system in the world. I note "the world". We are slipping compared to other 1st world countries that also have compulsory educational systems in math and science, but do you really want to implement Japanese style education if you think our school system is about conformity and obedience? To me, that slipping indicates that we need to continue to strive and improve our system, not give up on it completely and make it completely optional.

Do you really think that making education optional will help?

[Oldgringo]

It really fries my shorts to know that more than half of my annual property taxes go to support an ISD system in which I have never, nor ever will have, any of my offspring or my offspring's offspring.

Let those who chose to propagate the species pay for the education of their spawn.

[WildBill]

It really fries my shorts to know that more than half of my annual property taxes go to support an ISD system in which I have never, nor ever will have, any of my offspring or my offspring's offspring.

"It really fries my shorts" Bart Simpson

"Let those who chose to propagate the species pay for the education of their spawn." Ben Franklin

[cb1000rider]

It really fries my shorts to know that more than half of my annual property taxes go to support an ISD system in which I have never, nor ever will have, any of my offspring or my offspring's offspring.

Did you go to private school or were you home schooled?