"Give them the money, give them the keys. nobody gets s

[austin]

Last class I took one of the drills was to grab a pistol and move it away and let it discharge, familiarizing you with the fact that a pistol in your face is an invitation to disarming the gunman and bringing yours to bear in the retention position. All SA pistols will not cycle if you grab it hard enough and it does not hurt your hand at all. ( Just stay away from the muzzle, obviously.)

[TX Rancher]

Last class I took one of the drills was to grab a pistol and move it away and let it discharge, familiarizing you with the fact that a pistol in your face is an invitation to disarming the gunman and bringing yours to bear in the retention position. All SA pistols will not cycle if you grab it hard enough and it does not hurt your hand at all. ( Just stay away from the muzzle, obviously.)

Austin, my following comments may not apply to you since it sounds like you are receiving specific training, so please don’t take offense…They are intended for the rest of us.

A gun grab is a very dangerous thing if you haven’t practiced the move…a lot...with a capable partner.

Even those that do practice will probably tell you that against a good adversary the odds are not that good, and you have no idea how good the guy is who’s robbing you. It may be best to wait…if the guys stealing your car, or taking your wallet, he will eventually take the gun out of your face, look away, or something else that buys you an opening.

Now of course if you believe he is about to pull the trigger, then do what you have to and don’t delay. So what if the odds are you won’t succeed, you weren’t coming out of this alive anyway, so you got nothing to lose by playing the odds.

In this particular case, the guy wanted the car, and a dead body in the car that he has to remove is not desirable to him, that’s why he was grabbing the lady and attempting to drag her out of the car.

For those with CHL’s, as you’re being dragged out of the car, there will be multiple opportunities for contact shots, and that’s probably better then trying something while the BG is outside, highly mobile, and has a gun in your face…while you're relatively confined in your seat.

If you’re a passenger, get out under your own power and do a covert draw and wait for your opportunity. If there are multiple jackers, and one is dragging you out, go for the contact shot if you feel you have to, but remember you are putting the driver at risk.

Now if you’re a female, and he’s trying to push you into the passenger seat so he can take you and the car, the whole situation has changed. There’s a good chance you’re what he’s after, and the car is a secondary thing…bad scenario…and a different discussion on tactics and risks since we have a pretty good idea how that will end.

Prevention is a whole different discussion and worth a thread on it's own.

Edit to add:

My comments above are based on your belief you need to use deadly force. Each of you know where the line is for you, and will vary considerably depending on the person.

[Liberty]

A gun grab is a very dangerous thing if you haven’t practiced the move…a lot...with a capable partner.

Even those that do practice will probably tell you that against a good adversary the odds are not that good, and you have no idea how good the guy is who’s robbing you. It may be best to wait…if the guys stealing your car, or taking your wallet, he will eventually take the gun out of your face, look away, or something else that buys you an opening.

Now of course if you believe he is about to pull the trigger, then do what you have to and don’t delay. So what if the odds are you won’t succeed, you weren’t coming out of this alive anyway, so you got nothing to lose by playing the odds.

In this particular case, the guy wanted the car, and a dead body in the car that he has to remove is not desirable to him, that’s why he was grabbing the lady and attempting to drag her out of the car.

For those with CHL’s, as you’re being dragged out of the car, there will be multiple opportunities for contact shots, and that’s probably better then trying something while the BG is outside, highly mobile, and has a gun in your face…while you're relatively confined in your seat.

If you’re a passenger, get out under your own power and do a covert draw and wait for your opportunity. If there are multiple jackers, and one is dragging you out, go for the contact shot if you feel you have to, but remember you are putting the driver at risk.

Now if you’re a female, and he’s trying to push you into the passenger seat so he can take you and the car, the whole situation has changed. There’s a good chance you’re what he’s after, and the car is a secondary thing…bad scenario…and a different discussion on tactics and risks since we have a pretty good idea how that will end.

Prevention is a whole different discussion and worth a thread on it's own.

Edit to add:

My comments above are based on your belief you need to use deadly force. Each of you know where the line is for you, and will vary considerably depending on the person.

Very well reasoned, Thanks for your clarity.

[anygunanywhere]

First off, situational awareness at a drive through is always very important, and at 1:30 in the morning, I doubt very seriously if I would be anywhere but in between the sheets, much less at a drive through with my child. IMHO, if you have to grab a bite at this hour, you must be aware of your surroundings.

I reaqlly don't like ATM's eityher, and am very careful about where and when I stop. I always have my firearm readily accessible when using drive through ATM's.


I have been accosted at a drive through, in the evening, by a snotty nosed junkie in major withdrawals. Thank goodness for electric windows, and gas pedals of those 3000 pound weapons!

Anygun

[NcongruNt]

First off, situational awareness at a drive through is always very important, and at 1:30 in the morning, I doubt very seriously if I would be anywhere but in between the sheets, much less at a drive through with my child. IMHO, if you have to grab a bite at this hour, you must be aware of your surroundings.

I reaqlly don't like ATM's eityher, and am very careful about where and when I stop. I always have my firearm readily accessible when using drive through ATM's.


I have been accosted at a drive through, in the evening, by a snotty nosed junkie in major withdrawals. Thank goodness for electric windows, and gas pedals of those 3000 pound weapons!

Anygun

Agreed. I work night shifts, and quite frequently go to the drive-through very late at night ( generally around 3am) to get something to eat while at work. Situational awareness is very important, and have been approached by criminals with unlawful intentions during these brief outings. My first encounter with the police after I got my CHL was because of one of these situations. I always arm myself as soon as I get into my vehicle (can't carry at work ), but more importantly I check my surroundings and make myself aware of what is going on around me.

[Paladin]

Some comments:

A gun grab is a very dangerous thing if you haven’t practiced the move…a lot...with a capable partner.

Gun grabs are very dangerous. Most folks would probably only want to try this if they feel that they are about to die. If you're gonna die anyway, it's no extra risk to try the disarm.

Even those that do practice will probably tell you that against a good adversary the odds are not that good...

Not so. I had several folks in my Martial Arts class take a rubber gun from me. Action beats reaction. If the set up is right, and the disarmer knows what their doing the odds are very good for the disarmer.

Relative strength and the size of the gun can also make a difference.

My experience in class re-enforced the thought that praticing and using retention techniques is a good thing.

[Paladin]

All SA pistols will not cycle if you grab it hard enough and it does not hurt your hand at all. ( Just stay away from the muzzle, obviously.)

With revlovers, its pretty easy to keep the cylinder from moving.

With semi-autos, the slide operates with a great deal of force. I'm sure I'm not the only one out there who's gotten a bloody hand after being hit by a slide.

[dihappy]

If we were in LA, id be emailing that Sheriff about now.

[HOSSISFREE]

There's no way to know all the possibilities of how this situation could have turned out.

IMO if someone is bold enough to pull a gun on you they're bold enough to shoot you and leave you for dead. I say "do what you gotta do!" and I think that's what the kid did. Good for him!

Hoss

[ELB]

More preaching to the choir, I suppose, but I also think the Sheriff was giving poor advice. Someone who sticks a gun in your face is telling you that your life is of no consequence to his wants. He has already told you via his action that he does not mind killing you -- so can you really trust him if you hand over the keys?

You fight back as best you can, not because you think your car is worth it, but because you think your life is worth it, and because you want a vote in how the situation is going to end, not just sit there and leave it all up to some thug.

As to when and how you fight back, sure there are tactical considerations, you want to give yourself the best chance possible, but you can't wait for a "perfect" opportunity -- you take what you get, then be bold and decisive. Like that teenager. Good on him.

And if you want to take a society-level view of it, we are all safer when people like that teenager take action and fight back, even if, God forbid, they are unsuccessful. I think societies get the level of crime they are willing to tolerate. I think that is why crime rates in states that pass shall issue CHLs decline -- it's not just that a bunch of citizens are running around with guns (in fact, I think the rate of CHL carry in Texas is rather poor), but CHL laws are statements that people are not going to put up with crap like violent crime. They are not going to submit to criminals and hope the justice system eventually does something. They are going to settle the issue right then and there, and I think this eventually seeps into criminals minds, even if they can't articulate it. They understand it (and long, mandatory prison sentences).

Britain seems to be going the opposite direction - people are discouraged, even prosecuted, for defending themselves. I read a little while back that about 50% of burglaries in Britain are "hot" burglaries -- where thugs enter while people are at home. They do it on purpose because it is easier to break into a house when someone is home (often the door is unlocked, or they just ring the bell and barge in when someone answers), they can find the car keys and valuables quickly by threatening the people in the house, and they know the people will not fight back at all, much less shoot them. One policeman over there even recommended people leave their car keys in plain view on the ground floor at night so it would be less likely that the burglars would come upstairs looking for them!

I think Washington DC also has a big crime problem because they tolerate it. Making guns impossible to use, as their laws do (pending Supreme Court decision) is a huge signal that honest people's lives are not as important as criminals, and it is open season. Of course other signals are electing and reelecting crooked council members and crooked mayors.

So I think that teenager did right on two levels -- he saved his mom, not just her car, and he made society a little safer for the rest of us -- unlike that Sheriff.

elb

[austin]

It really depends on the distance.

If someone is within three feet and have the pistol extended, then they have given up most of their ability to fight you.

A gun in your face is an invitation to either take the gun away, bat it away, or move at a 45 degree angle off the line of attack - and then draw to retention and engage.

As for being shoved into a car or something else. Get your legs up and between you and the attacker and draw the weapon and start shooting at their face. There is nothing wrong with putting the muzzle against their body and shooting that way.

I am not an expert, but have seen these demonstrated and tried them.

TXRancher is right about practicing them. It is especially humbling for the attacker.

One thing I took from it is that as long as YOUR weapon is concealed you have a clear advantage. Once you begin to engage the attacker will adapt. You have 2-3 seconds to do what you have to do before you start getting shot or stabbed if the attacker is 100% motivated.

The other thing I noticed is that within 5 feet the muzzle blast and flash of your weapon is VERY distracting to those to whom it is directed. If it goes into someones face, it is incapacitating. You dont have to hit them.

[fm2]

If someone is within three feet and have the pistol extended, then they have given up most of their ability to fight you.

I'm not too sure about "giving up most of their ability" attributed to projecting the gun. It does offer a valuable chance to regain the initiative by diverting the muzzle and moving to a better position. Their ability to fight is one of those unknown variables we need to train for.

A gun in your face is an invitation to either take the gun away, bat it away, or move at a 45 degree angle off the line of attack - and then draw to retention and engage.

Are you talking about moving to 10 or 2 o'clock OR 8 or 4 o'clock?

There is nothing wrong with putting the muzzle against their body and shooting that way.

I dissagree with using semi-autos and revolvers for contact shots for a number of reasons.
1. If you have to project the gun, you are setting yourself up for a gun grab.
2. you could lose the gun due to it being diverted into a hard object, brick wall, car etc..
3. you could get your arm/gun tangled in clothing, seatbelt, etc..
4. 2nd shot reliability is compromised. You may get a FTF or some other kind of jam.

One thing I took from it is that as long as YOUR weapon is concealed you have a clear advantage. Once you begin to engage the attacker will adapt. You have 2-3 seconds to do what you have to do before you start getting shot or stabbed if the attacker is 100% motivated.

I agree that you will have an element of surprise. Just remember you have to bring your weapons to bear. What do you mean by 2-3 seconds is the time you will have? Are you suggesting the BG take that long to adapt?

[neal6325]

It would have been safer to hand over the keys and let the gunman drive off, Sheriff Harry Lee said Monday.

Does anyone in Law Enforcement really believe this? I sounds a lot like they are sending a message through the media to every crimal out there that Law Enforcment is there to help them victimize people.

How many times do we see issues with police pursuits that end badly. I do not hear many of our good law enforcement men and women saying we should stop pursuing BG's. Why? Because if the BG's think the law enforcement is going to roll over they will be more empowered. Same thing applies here. If they think everyone will give up their keys this will happen more often. If they fear they will be shot we have a deterent....I think the kid deserves public praise and the police should be sending a warning to the criminal rather than warning the citizen. It is almost as if they want more crime to help with job security. I know this is not the mentality of the officers on the street, just the desk jockeys that do not have to deal with the result of a crime gone wrong. I know each situation requires appropriate action and as times is may be best to hand over the keys but, to criticize someone publicly who chose not to is irresponsible and only encorages the BG's because even the police are trying to make it easier for them.

[ELB]

Update on that guy the 17 year-old took out:

http://www.wdsu.com/news/13536445/detail.html

Key bits:

Arby's Carjacking Suspect Linked To Homicide


Kenner police said the suspect in a carjacking at an Arby's drive-through is wanted in an unrelated killing.

Police have issued first-degree murder and aggravated burglary warrants for 44-year-old Carl Chestnut in connection with the death of 60-year-old Odrey Bordelon.

The trailer park manager was found strangled in his home June 5.

This is the guy Sheriff Lee wanted them to surrender to. Of course the teenager didn't know the carjacker was already a murderer, but of course he didn't know the carjacker WASN'T a murderer who might have been ready to add to his tally. Any one sticking a gun in your face is not threatening to rob you, he is threatening to kill you, and I think you should get a vote on the outcome.

Double good on the kid, he's a hero.

elb

[Skiprr]

Thanks for that update, ELB.