Shotgun in the car

[KRM45]

As far as I know it is and always has been perfectly legal to carry a loaded shotgun in your automobile. A CHL has nothing to do with it. (CHL = "Concealed Handgun License")

It may be a handgun license, but the law is written to allow CHL holders to allow them to carry otherwise illegal knives and clubs.

I'm not aware of this exception in the CHL law. Can you point out the section you are referring to?

[Nazrat]

As far as I know it is and always has been perfectly legal to carry a loaded shotgun in your automobile. A CHL has nothing to do with it. (CHL = "Concealed Handgun License")

It may be a handgun license, but the law is written to allow CHL holders to allow them to carry otherwise illegal knives and clubs.

Liberty,

Can you show me where the law says that a CHL can carry an otherwise illegal knife?

Thanks,

[KBCraig]

Can you show me where the law says that a CHL can carry an otherwise illegal knife?

It's not the intent of the CHL law, but it does, at least technically, legalize carrying a club or illegal knife. The lobbyists and representatives who worked on creating the law pretty well agree that that wasn't their intent, and legislative intent does carry weight when courts are deciding how the law should apply.

Anyway:


PC § 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits
an offense if he intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on
or about his person a handgun, illegal knife, or club.

And:

§ 46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY.
(b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:
(6) is carrying a concealed handgun and a valid
license issued under Article 4413(29ee), Revised Statutes, to carry
a concealed handgun of the same category as the handgun the person
is carrying;

A literal reading of the law says that if you have a CHL and are carrying a handgun, then the prohibition on carrying an illegal knife or club would not apply to you.

People more experienced in legal matters than I, tend to agree that this defense probably wouldn't work.

Personally, I believe the law should mean what it says and say what it means, and "everyone know that... " should not determine how the law is enforced.

Kevin

[Liberty]

As far as I know it is and always has been perfectly legal to carry a loaded shotgun in your automobile. A CHL has nothing to do with it. (CHL = "Concealed Handgun License")

It may be a handgun license, but the law is written to allow CHL holders to allow them to carry otherwise illegal knives and clubs.

Liberty,

Can you show me where the law says that a CHL can carry an otherwise illegal knife?

Thanks,

Maybe someone else can fill in the blanks, but as I Understand it:

PC §46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person com-mits
an offense if he intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or
about his person a handgun, illegal knife, or club.
(b) Except as provided by Subsection (c), an offense under this
section is a Class A misdemeanor.
(c) An offense under this section is a felony of the third degree if the
offense is committed on any premises licensed or issued a permit by
this state for the sale of alcoholic beverages.

Is the law which makes it illegal. What I can't find is the section of law which gives us the authority to carry does so by exempting 46.02 for CHL carriers. It does exist .. Hopefully someone who can find their way around the code can point it out for us.

[Liberty]

Can you show me where the law says that a CHL can carry an otherwise illegal knife?

It's not the intent of the CHL law, but it does, at least technically, legalize carrying a club or illegal knife. The lobbyists and representatives who worked on creating the law pretty well agree that that wasn't their intent, and legislative intent does carry weight when courts are deciding how the law should apply.

Anyway:


PC § 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits
an offense if he intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on
or about his person a handgun, illegal knife, or club.

And:

§ 46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY.
(b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:
(6) is carrying a concealed handgun and a valid
license issued under Article 4413(29ee), Revised Statutes, to carry
a concealed handgun of the same category as the handgun the person
is carrying;

A literal reading of the law says that if you have a CHL and are carrying a handgun, then the prohibition on carrying an illegal knife or club would not apply to you.

People more experienced in legal matters than I, tend to agree that this defense probably wouldn't work.

Personally, I believe the law should mean what it says and say what it means, and "everyone know that... " should not determine how the law is enforced.

Kevin

although I won't carry such weapons, because I don't understand a need, and such weapons are far to personal for my taste. I am also aware of the controversy. But I don't see any vagueness in the law at all. I also don't see it flying with the jury as some mind reading prosecutor tries to explain to a jury what the legislature "intended". although its probably pretty likely that a cop might not understand the law. It really should be crystal clear to anyone who can read English .. even prosecuters. Maybe there is something I'm not seeing or another section of code I don't know about?

IANAL and I also believe the 2nd means exactly was it says commas and all

[seamusTX]

I also don't see it flying with the jury as some mind reading prosecutor tries to explain to a jury what the legislature "intended". although its probably pretty likely that a cop might not understand the law. It really should be crystal clear to anyone who can read English .. even prosecuters.

I don't trust juries to be literate, reasonable, or intelligent; and most of us can't afford Rusty Hardin or Dick DeGuerin.

I agree that a literal reading of the law says that when you have a CHL and are carrying a handgun, you can carry an illegal knife or club.

I also agree that is not what the legislature intended. Some states have concealed weapons permits that explicitly allow licensees to carry weapons other than handguns. The Texas legislators could have gone that route, and they didn't.

Anyway, I'm not going to try going around with a sword and pistol, like Froggy in the kid's song.

- Jim

[Nazrat]

Thanks for the updates.

Wow, that will make for some fun statutory construction.

Hopefully, a reasonable judge will kick any charges for carrying an illegal knife on the motion to dismiss level. However, I can hear the prosecutor on cross asking which part of the CHL class covered knives and, if they didn't cover knives, what made you think you could carry an illegal knife. It shouldn't be a winning argument but it does make you cringe.

I am going to have to spend some time parsing the statutes to see what else can be construed to a license holder's advantage.

[seamusTX]

However, I can hear the prosecutor on cross asking which part of the CHL class covered knives and, if they didn't cover knives, what made you think you could carry an illegal knife.

ElGato talks about knives to some extent.

Also, the justifiable use of deadly force covers all means of deadly force, from rocks to vehicles.

- Jim

[txinvestigator]

Thanks for the updates.

Wow, that will make for some fun statutory construction.

Hopefully, a reasonable judge will kick any charges for carrying an illegal knife on the motion to dismiss level. However, I can hear the prosecutor on cross asking which part of the CHL class covered knives and, if they didn't cover knives, what made you think you could carry an illegal knife. It shouldn't be a winning argument but it does make you cringe.

I am going to have to spend some time parsing the statutes to see what else can be construed to a license holder's advantage.

DPS tells instructors that the CHL only authorizes handguns, and I believe them. I wrote a lenghty post describing why I believe it some time ago here.

That said, DPS indicates they will arrest a CHLer found with an illegal knife or club. I have asked cops from many different agencies and they all agree.

[govnor]

Well, I still haven't gotten my CHL. It is in the works. I'll opt at this point to carry the shotgun instead of a handgun. The reason is because I don't have good access to the pistol anyway. I keep it well hidden. A shotgun is not much different given the size of it.

Not sure I agree with the statement about size between shotgun and pistol, but in practice I guess it all depends on the criminal activity you are protecting yourself against.

What type of activities are you carrying the shottie for? In other words, what are you protecting against?

For some activities, a long gun is just not as effective as a pistol...not as agile in a confined space such as some vehicles.

Also, if you are carrying the pistol in addition to the shotgun (you mentioned it was in deep concealment), and use the shotgun in self defense, LEO will probably find the pistol. Are you carrying it in such a way that won't be an issue (such as a locked container)?

Of course after Sep that will not be an issue...

What I meant by that was since the pistol is so well hidden, getting to it would be no easier than trying to pull a fullsize shotgun out. It could be done, but it's a hassle either way.

I carry to protect myself in bad neighborhoods that I have to go through almost every day. It's just the nature of my business. Plus, I have next door neighbors that I have to call the cops on all the time, so they stand out there and stare at me as I'm going and coming home. My last next door neighbors threatened to kill me, so I'm very wary of people like this.

Why do I have such bad luck with neighbors? I don't know... but if I can hear your tejano or hip hop music in my house with the windows shut...I'm not putting up with it. That's the reason for calling the police on both sets of neighbors. Most people are to wussiefied and just put up with it. I just carry a gun in case they try to jump me. I've heard of it happening to another guy over here before, by the same type of people.

I don't carry a shotgun and a pistol. I only would carry one or the other at this point. Once I get the CHL in the mail...the entire arsenal might be with me at any given time.

[jimlongley]

Thanks for the updates.

Wow, that will make for some fun statutory construction.

Hopefully, a reasonable judge will kick any charges for carrying an illegal knife on the motion to dismiss level. However, I can hear the prosecutor on cross asking which part of the CHL class covered knives and, if they didn't cover knives, what made you think you could carry an illegal knife. It shouldn't be a winning argument but it does make you cringe.

I am going to have to spend some time parsing the statutes to see what else can be construed to a license holder's advantage.

DPS tells instructors that the CHL only authorizes handguns, and I believe them. I wrote a lenghty post describing why I believe it some time ago here.

That said, DPS indicates they will arrest a CHLer found with an illegal knife or club. I have asked cops from many different agencies and they all agree.

And when I was in Citizens' Police Academy an officer involved in presenting the training did say, but not during class time, that he felt the literal interpretation would indicate that a CHL holder carrying a concealed handgun under the authority of 30.06 would be safe if also carrying an otherwise illegal club or knife. Of course he also opined that it woulld be a good idea for anyone doing so to be prepared for a protracted court fight, and possibly to lose, because it is titled "Concealed Handgun License"

This was during a side discussion of wierd laws, or wierd wording, and unintended consequences of well nmeaning legislation.

[govnor]

Thanks for the updates.

Wow, that will make for some fun statutory construction.

Hopefully, a reasonable judge will kick any charges for carrying an illegal knife on the motion to dismiss level. However, I can hear the prosecutor on cross asking which part of the CHL class covered knives and, if they didn't cover knives, what made you think you could carry an illegal knife. It shouldn't be a winning argument but it does make you cringe.

I am going to have to spend some time parsing the statutes to see what else can be construed to a license holder's advantage.

DPS tells instructors that the CHL only authorizes handguns, and I believe them. I wrote a lenghty post describing why I believe it some time ago here.

That said, DPS indicates they will arrest a CHLer found with an illegal knife or club. I have asked cops from many different agencies and they all agree.

And when I was in Citizens' Police Academy an officer involved in presenting the training did say, but not during class time, that he felt the literal interpretation would indicate that a CHL holder carrying a concealed handgun under the authority of 30.06 would be safe if also carrying an otherwise illegal club or knife. Of course he also opined that it woulld be a good idea for anyone doing so to be prepared for a protracted court fight, and possibly to lose, because it is titled "Concealed Handgun License"

This was during a side discussion of wierd laws, or wierd wording, and unintended consequences of well nmeaning legislation.

I imagine that illegal knives are illegal for the same reason that suppressors are...silent. If I was carrying a samurai sword, I could probably do some deadly carving on someone that I snuck up on. So I kind of understand the reason behind them being illegal.

On that note though, if my intention was to do something like that...I'm taking it with me anyway! If I planned to commit such a heinous crime in the first place, then why would I care if the law says my knife or sword is illegal? It's just like gun laws saying who can or cannot buy a gun. Well, criminals don't buy guns...they steal 'em!

I wonder if anyone ever decided against committing a crime because it was illegal for them to carry their intended weapon in the car...lol.

[jimlongley]

I wonder if anyone ever decided against committing a crime because it was illegal for them to carry their intended weapon in the car...lol.

I do get a little bit of a kick out of a knife that I legally owned in NY State, where I couldn't even own a handgun being illegal in Texas.

[Liberty]

I wonder if anyone ever decided against committing a crime because it was illegal for them to carry their intended weapon in the car...lol.

I do get a little bit of a kick out of a knife that I legally owned in NY State, where I couldn't even own a handgun being illegal in Texas.

and to make matters worse any knife that locks open is illegal in San Antonio.

[KBCraig]

The biggest shame is that a Bowie knife, namesake of a Hero of the Alamo, is an "illegal knife" in Texas.