Signficance of the Tueller Drill

[Hoppes]

How many know about the Tueller Dril and its signifcance? Has anyone ever had to use it in court after self-defense incident? For those that are not familiar with the Tueller Drill, let me give a short description below. I am interested in hearing your experience about the Tueller Drill and instances where it helped in a self-defense case that went to court.

===============================================

Dennis Tueller with the Detective Division of the Salt Lake City Police Department was one of the first to test reaction time when it relates to firearms for self-defense. The lesson of his "Tueller Drill" has become standard fare for tactical schools and there is much legal precedent for its use as a defense in court. (1) First published in 1983, the Tueller Drill assesses the lethal threat posed by a contact weapon (knife, club, etc.) utilized at a distance. It answers the question as to whether a pocket knife or other impact weapon in the hands of an assailant can be considered a lethal weapon in the perpetrator is farther away than contact distance. (1)

In short, the drill puts an assailant 21 feet from the intended victim. On signal, the assailant's run to the victim is timed, as is the victim's draw. Through the use of this drill by a wide variety of ages, weights, physical abilities, and sizes of people, it was determined that the average time that it takes to traverse (close) 21 feet is 1.5 seconds. The average time it takes to recognize the threat, draw, and fire is closer to 2 seconds for average shooters. The significance of this conclusion is that a knife or other impact weapon may be legally considered a lethal weapon when the perpetrator is 21 feet away and the victim's gun is in its holster. (1)

The legal consideration of the Tueller Drill should be that if a person wishes to use this information in his or her defense in case they had to shoot an assailant, he or she would have to establish to the court that he or she had knowledge of the Tueller Drill PRIOR to an attack by an assailant in which he or she fired his or her handgun, rifle, or shotgun to stop the assailant's attack. The victim would also have to establish that the assailant was within the 21 feet to meet the Tueller Drill test.

It is important to document your knowledge of the Tueller Drill BEFORE ANY attack occurs. Take notes (including these), read the references, copy those notes, and use other information that verifies the existence of your knowledge of the Tueller Drill on a specified date in time and place them in an envelope. Mail that envelope to yourself via U.S. Mail, Certified, Return Receipt, Restricted Delivery. Leave the envelope sealed and in a safety lock box. If needed, it can be opened in a court room to prove that you knew of the Tueller Drill AT and BEFORE the time you had to stop an attacker with your weapon. (2)

As with all legal matters, there are caveats. If you decide to pursue this information further, I suggest talking with a good lawyer who has knowledge of such matters.

(1). How Close is Too Close?, SWAT Magazine. March 1983.

(2). Armed Response. David Kenik, Forward by Massad Ayoob. Merril Press, WA, Copyright 2005 David Kenik, Chapter 3, 7.

Note: Much of this information was found in reference (2) above. Armed Response by David Kenik. There are other sources that contain information about the Tueller Drill. Massad Ayoob mentions it different texts or articles.

===============================================

Hoppes

[seamusTX]

As far as I know, this defense is used when the police are sued for shooting someone who is armed with a knife.

The number of non-police self-defense cases that result in lawsuits that go to trial is very small. If the plaintiff prevails, it is generally due to some aspect of law in another state (such as duty to retreat) that do not apply to Texas, or rash statements by the defender (Bernard Goetz).

- Jim

[txinvestigator]

As far as I know, this defense is used when the police are sued for shooting someone who is armed with a knife.

The number of non-police self-defense cases that result in lawsuits that go to trial is very small. If the plaintiff prevails, it is generally due to some aspect of law in another state (such as duty to retreat) that do not apply to Texas, or rash statements by the defender (Bernard Goetz).

- Jim

This information has been used in criminal proceedings. An uneducated DA could easily decide to prosecute a person for shooting an edged weapon offender who was standing a full 7 yards away when shot by a defender. MANY people believe an edged weapon wielder is not a threat until at contact distance.

You can read the original article from SWAT magazine here;

http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Tuel ... .Close.htm

[TraCoun]

The Tueller Drill is a standard demonstration in the NRA Personal Protection Inside the Home course. It gets the point across pretty well. It also usually raises several eyebrows

Thanx,
TraCoun

[casingpoint]

Tueller Drill is a victim of Aggie Math. If it takes two seconds to draw and shoot a threat that will reach you in 1.5 seconds, the something over 21 feet is the distance a which a knife, bludgeon, etc would become a lethal threat when the intended victim's gun is in the holster. Of course, it's better to see trouble coming and have your weapon at the ready, avoiding all this draw nonsense. We all can't be like Bill Jordan.

[KBCraig]

The Tueller Drill also based on open carry in a service holster, which usually provides a less complicated and faster draw. Especially if you have one hand busy defending/blocking/deflecting, and unavailable to assist moving the cover garment out of the way, or extracting from deep concealment.

[txinvestigator]

The Tueller Drill also based on open carry in a service holster, which usually provides a less complicated and faster draw. Especially if you have one hand busy defending/blocking/deflecting, and unavailable to assist moving the cover garment out of the way, or extracting from deep concealment.

TRUE DAT!

[GaryTx]

At my last CHL Instructor class, DPS personnel had some training videos they showed to illustrate this.

They had an experienced active trooper armed with an IWB rig stand and face another trooper armed with the rubber knife. Then they timed and filmed the "perp" rushing him from various distances while he drew his weapon.

The 21 feet can be covered remarkedly fast. All the more reason you have to remain aware of surroundings.

[stevie_d_64]

The Tueller Drill also based on open carry in a service holster, which usually provides a less complicated and faster draw. Especially if you have one hand busy defending/blocking/deflecting, and unavailable to assist moving the cover garment out of the way, or extracting from deep concealment.

TRUE DAT!

Practice, situational awareness, proficiency...They all factor into this...


Like TraCoun said, the demonstration at PSC a while back was an eye opener for many folks...

But then again "Paladin" is a very tall and fast person...

[TX Rancher]

The Tueller Drill also based on open carry in a service holster, which usually provides a less complicated and faster draw. Especially if you have one hand busy defending/blocking/deflecting, and unavailable to assist moving the cover garment out of the way, or extracting from deep concealment.

Certainly a good observation…and very valid. But then again, what else would you expect from someone of KB's caliber

Casingpoint mention 2 sec draw time…a respectable number from concealment.

How many of you out there have timed yourself to find out your average time for putting metal to meat from your everyday carry? Of course your time may vary upwards in the real world since the decision process will be a little different…I doubt your time will get faster.

What I mean by that is when you time trial yourself, you know you’re going to shoot as soon as the buzzer goes off, there’s no “decision� time involved. You probably can’t be that sure in the real world, so you will probably have to go through all the OODA loop cycles.

Yes, the decision cycle can be very fast, but every tenth of a second works for the attacker and against you.

Let’s say you’re time trial puts you at 1.8 sec from concealed to hitting the target with a double tap COM. Now let’s add 0.3 for you to observe and orient to the threat, another 0.1 to decide to act, and then start your draw. Let’s further assume you didn’t have time to get in your ideal stance, so your draw takes 1.9 sec. That’s a total time of 2.3 sec to putting lead on target. Disclaimer: These are not my times, nor are they meant to reflect the absolute times of anyone on the board. The intent is only to justify my statement your time trial speed is probably fast when compared to real life.

Now let’s assume you’re a good shot and all shots hit COM. The odds on them being instant stops are pretty slim. Even a heart shot will leave the attacker plenty of time in this scenario to kill the guy who killed him…

So adding the times up to hit target, and the potential for the BG to continue his attack after being hit, I don’t place much faith in the 21 foot “rule�. Its good training since it gets the point across, and since it’s easy to prove and understand it’s good for legal defense since the jury can grasp it quickly. But to use 21 foot as your rule for concealed carry self defense may not be wise…the distance could be much further.

There are things you can do to increase your survivability. Anything that increases the time for the BG to close is good, as is anything that removes the BG’s ability to move, or more correctly to close on you.

Central nervous system (CNS) hits will do the job. A hit in the brain pan has a high potential of stopping the BG, but that’s precision shooting, and you probably don’t have time to set up for it.

Shooting the hip, knees, ankles, etc are also all precision shots that with the exception of the hip are all tougher then the head shot.

COM is still the best option in my mind…who knows, maybe you’ll get lucky and hit the spinal cord. Losing control of his leg muscles would certainly slow him down.

So if precision shooting isn’t the answer, what’s left? To me the answer is to increase the time it takes for the BG to get within striking distance. One way is for the good guy to move. Don’t stand there and take a good shooting stance.

Move laterally, not backwards. Most folks don’t run very well backwards and this is a time for speed. There’s a reason pro football players don’t run backwards to get away from the defensive guys. Lateral allows relatively fast movement while not representing major impediment to drawing (if you practice).

Now I’m probably going to get blasted for the next statement, but forget about your sights, both front and rear. Bringing your weapon up to eye level, finding the front site, then pressing the trigger takes time, which is something you don’t have in abundance.

It’s better to practice instinct shooting for this case. With a little practice, you can reliably put lead on target from inside 25ft while moving laterally. For me moving to the right is faster/more accurate since I can still use two hand holds, but I do practice moving left with one hand. Actually, I practice it more since it’s where I’m weakest.

This is a good drill to try using airsoft. For most folks it will be an eye opener on how vulnerable they are to determined attackers inside 25 feet.

Of course a determined attacker is worst case, but isn’t that what we train for, and then hope never happens?

[longtooth]

All of the above is why I teach in my awareness class, "Your gun may not be your best 1st response." It ma not be possible for it to be your 1st response."

[seamusTX]

Now I’m probably going to get blasted for the next statement, but forget about your sights, both front and rear.

I practiced this yesterday, shooting as fast as I could alternately at two targets. I wouldn't say I forgot about the sights, but I did not consciously focus on them and align them. I got 4-inch groups at 7 yards.

Try it if you can. Start slowly, and gradually increase the rate of fire.

- JIm

[lrb111]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nqtt-b0c ... ed&search=

[longtooth]

Now I’m probably going to get blasted for the next statement, but forget about your sights, both front and rear.

I practiced this yesterday, shooting as fast as I could alternately at two targets. I wouldn't say I forgot about the sights, but I did not consciously focus on them and align them. I got 4-inch groups at 7 yards.

Try it if you can. Start slowly, and gradually increase the rate of fire.

- JIm

No blast from here Rancher. I practice close range point & shoot or "flash sight picture" (formal name). I do it out to 7yds all the time as stated above. This is an excellent personal defense drill. The 2nd range of your proficiency test makes that easy.
Point & shoot is just that. If your grip & fundamentals are practiced & good, then your bullet impact will be 1 inch above what your index finger is pointing at before going to the trigger.
Flash sight picture should be no more than instantanious visual aquisition of front site before firing. If you have to "AIM" at 15 feet or less you will probable never get a shot off.
THis should be practiced pretty regular. Not looking for a 5 shot group that can be coverd w/ a dollar bill folded in half. You are looking for 3-5 center mass hits in 3 seconds or less while MOVING laterally. Practice one hand & weak hand too.

[CWOOD]

Here is a video of this subject at various distances.

It is not as funny as Monty Python, but it really illustrates what is being said.

http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/2006 ... drill.html