Open carry claims another victim

[TX Rancher]

I'd say that people might get shot with their own guns if they are carrying openly.

Quite a few states have open carry, and citizens there practice it regularly. Would you care to list the most recent five or ten times that criminals seized weapons from non-LEOs?

- Jim

"Quite a few states have open carry, and citizens there practice it regularly."

Show me an urban area where even 1% of adults on the street carry openly.

The reason I can't cite a lot of cases of non-LEO's having their guns snatched is because most people have more common sense than to put themselves in a position where that might happen.

Swing over to opencarry.org...I'm sure the folks there would like to know they don't have the proper level of common sense.

And sorry, I don't by the "I don't have any cases, but trust me" argument. How do you know the cases of a civilian having his weapon taken away due to open carry outnumber those of the BG deciding to pick on an easier target? It seems the deterrent value is being completely overlooked.

If open carry were legal in Tx, I doubt I would carry openly much in town. But it has nothing to do with the heightened risk of a gun grab. It’s more just my desire to avoid conflict/issues when I can. Why deal with a civilian that’s anti-gun in public if I don’t have to? But it would be nice to get out of my truck, and then put my cover garment on and not worry about the legalities of intentionally failing to conceal, and in the rural area in which I live, I would probably open carry all the time.

Personally I don’t think the deterrent effect or gun grab are worth worrying about since I suspect the likelihood is slim.

[Liberty]

Prayers for the slain Deputy and his family.

This does not change the fact it is my RIGHT to bear ARMS anyway I choose including open carry!

I have no problem with people having the right to open carry under the law. If TX was considering an open carry law, I would support it.

I'm just pointing out that it increases your level of risk.

If you're comfortable with that, fine. Your choice.

Of course Texas is considering it. There some grass roots groups pushing for it, and hoping to get the TSRA behind it. But it becomes difficult when some of our own resist the concept.
You have admitted to open carrying so it sounds like you believe that it is OK for you but others aren't to be trusted. There are situations where it might be a preferred method for some people in some situatations. Others have pointed out that there have been historically very few problems associated with open carry.

Carlson has suggested some reservations about even discussing the issue, because any discussion can just give ammo to to the antis. While you are looking at this as a safety issue. I believe that most of us are well aware of the obvious. I and others see this as a fundimental civil right. It is an important issue to some people even if we never intend to use that option. What is important is to have that option available to us, and not having some silly leftist lawyer type in Austin telling us it is a bad idea and protecting us from our selves.
So OK I will take Carlson's gentle warning to heart. The last thing I want to to do is arm the anti's .
In the words of the smartest possum ever, "We have met the enemy and he is us!"

[carlson1]

So OK I will take Carlson's gentle warning to heart. The last thing I want to to do is arm the anti's .

Your $25 is in the mail

In the words of the smartest possum ever, "We have met the enemy and he is us!"

I will put this on our Church Sign if I have the possum's and your permission to use it.

[frankie_the_yankee]

Prayers for the deputy and his family.

Apparently, the weapon was taken from the deputy during the course of a struggle. The weapon was not "snatched" from him unawares. So, clearly "open carry" is not an issue in this case.....and I suspect you know that too.

All I know is what was in the article I posted.

Sure there was some kind of struggle going on. In this case, the cop was pressing the issue trying to make the arrest. But a struggle is a struggle once it starts. It is no less a struggle if it starts because some whacko tries to snatch someone's openly carried gun.

Unless you can cite authenticated cases of ordinary citizens (from open carry states) that have had their weapons taken and used against them.....then I remain unimpressed with your assertion.

Then remain unimpressed.

But I'll put it bluntly, so there's no mistaking what I am saying here. The reason examples of "snatching" from non-LEO's are hard to come by is because very few of them are stupid enough to carry openly in the wide variety of places where there would be a significant risk.

Why do you think prison guards don't carry when they are "interacting" with the prisoners?

If you think that there is no added risk of snatching from giving up tactical sursprise by carrying openly, then you go ahead and think that.

It does point to one very real need however: Training in weapons retention....and some rudimentary hand to hand skills for those physically capable.

Even if you "start" with your weapon concealed, if the need arises to draw that weapon and you are within 0-10 feet of a determined BG... you might still be disarmed.

Training is always a good idea.

Yes, there will always be the occasional nutcase/brazen/unstable...etc person that would attempt "an open carry snatch of your weapon". But until you prove to me that it happens in appreciable numbers, then I think an open carry "option" would be of benefit to many of us.

Just another opinion.

1) I don't have to prove anything.

2) You might think it is a "benefit", but unlike me you have offerred ZERO in the way of logic or facts as to the nature of that benefit or where it comes from. All I been able to glean so far is that you seem to like the idea of open carry.

Unfortunately, I don't really care, if you like open carry, or if you want the right to do it in TX. FWIW, if it was on the table, I would support it.

It ain't my problem if someone gets their darn fool head blown off.

3) Here are the tradeoffs:

Benefits of open carry:

Faster draw and presentation
Possible deterrent factor

Drawbacks of open carry:

Loss of tactical surprise
Increased opportunities for "snatching"

You can think whatever you want, but to me, giving up tactical surprise is HUGE. It can make you the first one shot. Your chances of ambushing the BG or BG's are greatly reduced. Their chances of ambushing YOU are greatly increased.

I think it greatly overbalances any minor advantage from being able to draw more quickly. (Time it. I can draw from a concealment garment and get off a shot in right around 2 seconds. Without the concealment garment, I can take about a half to three fourths of a second off of that. Note that the above was NOT accomplished using a retention holster. I don't own one, but I believe it would be a little slower.)

Because most people are endowed with good sense, the number of people (non-LEO's) carrying openly in crowded, urban environments is minimal. So there is little data available.

The one population group that DOES carry openly in large numbers in these environments is cops. And there's a lot of data on how they fare. Like the Providence, RI detective that I mentioned in another thread, they sometimes get shot with their own guns, after those guns have been snatched by some dirtball they were in the presence of.

Note: There was no struggle going on when this happened. The detective was questioning a suspect in a room at Prov. PD HQ when the suspect ambushed him, overpowered him (he was much larger), snatched his gun, and shot him dead.

[frankie_the_yankee]

You have admitted to open carrying so it sounds like you believe that it is OK for you but others aren't to be trusted.

I open carry on my ranch. I think it is stupid to do so in a crowded urban environment.

I have also carried openly once in Phoenix, AZ. (My RI carry permit was not honored by AZ, so I couldn't carry concealed.) When I entered a quickie mart one evening in a bad area, I became VERY, VERY aware of the value of tactical surprise, and the fact that I didn't have it.

Now I know a lot of people here would say, "You should not have gone into that quickie mart." But I have a life to live and I'm not gonna spend it hiding under a bed. if I want a soda I'm gonna buy one wherever I happen to find it.

There are situations where it might be a preferred method for some people in some situatations.

Name one, and tell me how open carry is better.

Carlson has suggested some reservations about even discussing the issue, because any discussion can just give ammo to to the antis.

I believe this to be utter nonsense. The antis in this state are so weak that one good sneeze would blow them all the way to Japan.

While you are looking at this as a safety issue. I believe that most of us are well aware of the obvious. I and others see this as a fundimental civil right.

If a bill comes up to legalize it, I will support it.

That doesn't change the fact that it is tactically stupid to do it in most situations.

It is an important issue to some people even if we never intend to use that option. What is important is to have that option available to us, and not having some silly leftist lawyer type in Austin telling us it is a bad idea and protecting us from our selves.

Not much chance of that. You guys are too paranoid. Where I come from, the gun-ban people are strong. It was all we could do to maintain even a shell of 2A rights.

Here in TX, the gun-ban people are on the lunatic fringe. The only 2 anti bills submitted this year never even got a hearing. We passed a lot of good bills. The only one we didn't get, the parking lot bill, was defeated by the business lobby, not by the gun-ban people. You don't realize how good we have it here. This ain't the Northeast.

[frankie_the_yankee]

I'd say that people might get shot with their own guns if they are carrying openly.

Quite a few states have open carry, and citizens there practice it regularly. Would you care to list the most recent five or ten times that criminals seized weapons from non-LEOs?

- Jim

"Quite a few states have open carry, and citizens there practice it regularly."

Show me an urban area where even 1% of adults on the street carry openly.

The reason I can't cite a lot of cases of non-LEO's having their guns snatched is because most people have more common sense than to put themselves in a position where that might happen.

Swing over to opencarry.org...I'm sure the folks there would like to know they don't have the proper level of common sense.

And sorry, I don't by the "I don't have any cases, but trust me" argument. How do you know the cases of a civilian having his weapon taken away due to open carry outnumber those of the BG deciding to pick on an easier target? It seems the deterrent value is being completely overlooked.

You're asking me to show you cases, and you can't even show me where people are doing it. If no one's doing it, there won't be any cases.

Show me an urban area in an open carry state where 1% or more of the adults on the street are carrying openly and we can go look for cases.

Phoenix, AZ is probably the most "open carry" urban area in the country. Go there and count the number of people you see carrying openly.

[carlson1]

The more I watch this thread the more I see why some should not carry open because they are to defensive. It has been said for many other threads so let me remind EVERYONE here that there is nothing wrong with a debate, but this thing has the tone of going bad - then we lock it and we miss others opinion.

[frankie_the_yankee]

And sorry, I don't by the "I don't have any cases, but trust me" argument. How do you know the cases of a civilian having his weapon taken away due to open carry outnumber those of the BG deciding to pick on an easier target? It seems the deterrent value is being completely overlooked.

If open carry were legal in Tx, I doubt I would carry openly much in town. But it has nothing to do with the heightened risk of a gun grab. It’s more just my desire to avoid conflict/issues when I can. Why deal with a civilian that’s anti-gun in public if I don’t have to?

<snip>

Personally I don’t think the deterrent effect or gun grab are worth worrying about since I suspect the likelihood is slim.

So you wouldn't open carry in town because you are concerned about having a possibly unpleasant conversation with an anti, but you're not concerned about the possibility that some criminal may try to snatch your gun when you might find yourself in a crowded situation?

I would respectfully suggest that you take another look at those priorities.

If you really want to "avoid conflict/issues", don't go around town with a gun sticking out in plain sight where some BG can grab it.

[JohnKSa]

Haven't been able to check this one out, but it's food for thought.

http://www.therallypoint.org/forum/inde ... opic=930.0

[flintknapper]

I'd say that people might get shot with their own guns if they are carrying openly.

Quite a few states have open carry, and citizens there practice it regularly. Would you care to list the most recent five or ten times that criminals seized weapons from non-LEOs?

- Jim

"Quite a few states have open carry, and citizens there practice it regularly."

Show me an urban area where even 1% of adults on the street carry openly.

The reason I can't cite a lot of cases of non-LEO's having their guns snatched is because most people have more common sense than to put themselves in a position where that might happen.

Swing over to opencarry.org...I'm sure the folks there would like to know they don't have the proper level of common sense.

And sorry, I don't by the "I don't have any cases, but trust me" argument. How do you know the cases of a civilian having his weapon taken away due to open carry outnumber those of the BG deciding to pick on an easier target? It seems the deterrent value is being completely overlooked.

You're asking me to show you cases, and you can't even show me where people are doing it. If no one's doing it, there won't be any cases.

Show me an urban area in an open carry state where 1% or more of the adults on the street are carrying openly and we can go look for cases.

Phoenix, AZ is probably the most "open carry" urban area in the country. Go there and count the number of people you see carrying openly.

Well yes, we are "asking you to show us cases". It is a reasonable request and rather incumbent upon someone trying to make a strong point. You did start the thread. It would be mighty convenient for you if we did all the work.

From what I know of the 20+ states that allow/require open carry....there does not seem to be a rash of BG's snatching weapons. If you have something to refute this....simply post it.

Perhaps a new thread discussing the possible pro's and con's of open carry (again) would be more appropriate at this stage.

Also, the information you seek may be available here:

http://opencarry.com/

No doubt... you'll get an invigorating response there.

I certainly respect your opinions on the subject, I just have my doubts about the problem(s) open carry presents (on any level).

Thank You, for your thoughts and perspective.


Flint.

[Renegade]

I'm just pointing out that it increases your level of risk.

No you haven't.

You have taken the tragedy of a Police Officer being killed in the line duty and used it as a vehicle to promote your political agenda against open carry. That is shameful.

[frankie_the_yankee]

Well yes, we are "asking you to show us cases". It is a reasonable request and rather incumbent upon someone trying to make a strong point.

If you know of any place where non-LEO people actually do carry openly in large numbers, as opposed to merely talking about it, please tell me where it is and I'll be happy to look for cases.

From what I know of the 20+ states that allow/require open carry....there does not seem to be a rash of BG's snatching weapons. If you have something to refute this....simply post it.

Does your knowledge of those states extend to knowing what % of people carry openly in urban areas?

If not, then see above.

I've travelled to many of those states. From what I can tell, seeing a non-LEO openly carrying in an urban environment is RARE.

Go walk the streets in Alexandria, VA for instance. I have, as recently as last summer. Count up how many people you see going about their business carrying openly. On a week long trip to VA, I never saw even ONE.

I certainly respect your opinions on the subject, I just have my doubts about the problem(s) open carry presents (on any level).

Thank You, for your thoughts and perspective.

Flint.

I find it interesting that no one seems to think that giving up tactical surprise is much of an issue. To me that is a dead giveaway of either someone who has never carried openly in a crowded urban situation, or someone who is completely unaware of their surroundings. Packing heat in a hunting camp in northern Idaho and visiting the local general store doesn't cut it.

All I will say is, walk into an urban quickie mart full of BG types while carrying openly in a non-retention type holster, and then talk to me about it. I've been there, I have the teeshirt, and I'm working on the book deal. I have carried concealed for many years, and believe me, it wasn't hard to tell the difference.

Plenty of people say, "show me cases". So I cite a case I'm familiar with off the top of my head and they say, "Well, that was an LEO. You can't find non-LEO cases."

To which I reply, "You can't find non-LEO's who carry openly in urban areas."

My experience is that many more people (non-LEO's) dream about open carry, and talk about open carry, than actually do it.

Finally, no one walks around with some kind of golden halo around them. What I know for a fact is that if someone is walking around carrying openly in a non-retention holster, their gun is easily "snatchable". No way am I gonna give someone that kind of opportunity. Anything than can happen will happen.

[frankie_the_yankee]

I'm just pointing out that it increases your level of risk.

No you haven't.

You have taken the tragedy of a Police Officer being killed in the line duty and used it as a vehicle to promote your political agenda against open carry. That is shameful.

Nonsense. Get your facts straight. I have no political agenda against open carry. I have stated repeatedly in this thread that I would support it if a bill was introduced here in TX.

I merely think it is D-U-M-B to carry openly in an urban environment.

[srothstein]

So if you are in close proximity to numbers of people whom you don't know, there is a chance that one of them might see your gun and try to snatch it. A struggle for the gun could ensue. Anything could happen.

Isn't this the same assumption the gun grabbers use to argue to ban guns? That is, assuming all of the people out there are bad guys. I have carried openly for a long time and the only time someone has tried to grab my gun was in training.

I will admit that this is a possibility. There are robbers out there or we would not consider carrying at all. But I don't see it as a real possibility. I get more worked up about the ladies who carry their weapons in their purses, especially the ones designed as holsters. There are way more purse snatchings out there than I would like for this type of carry.

But lets get realistic about this. If you do not put yourself into a bad situation, will your gun get grabbed. I doubt it. Cops get their guns grabbed because they go try to arrest people and some people, for some unknown reason, just don't want to be arrested. If you don't try this, you are much safer to begin with.

Cops carry openly mostly because they have to.

Sorry, but I have to ask why you think this is true. I know lots of cops who carry concealed on duty. I agree that it would look unusual to see a cop in uniform without a weapon, but there is no law saying they cannot carry that way (at least in Texas).

Armed citizens do not need to carry openly. They do not need to take on the added risk. That being the case, IMO it is foolish to do so.

I don't think it is foolish to do so since I see it as a very little added risk. I just see it as a personal choice and don't worry about it either way. I do see a benefit to open carry also. If enough people carried openly and nothing happened, we might stop scaring people that all guns make the owners go nuts and kill. The average citizen might just stop worrying so much about guns if they saw them every day in a non-threatening way.

[frankie_the_yankee]

Also, the information you seek may be available here:

http://opencarry.com/

No doubt... you'll get an invigorating response there.

Don't make me laugh. I wouldn't trust anything I saw on that website.

They list RI as a state that allows open carry for people with AG-issued pistol permits. I lived there for 50 years. People who carry openly in RI on AG-issued pistol permits get arrested. After getting hauled off to jail, they are subsequently released when the idiot cops "discover" (for the millionth time) that it is not against the law.

RI is VERY anti-gun. So if anyone sees a non-LEO carrying they will call the police to report a "man with a gun". The police will arrest that person, even if they have a permit, on the pretext of "checking to see if the permit is valid".

I have seen this happen many times. Any non-LEO, non-uniformed security guard who carries openly in RI will get arrested every day.

It may not be "right", but it is the way it is there.

One time a guy with a permit was "made" by a bus driver who, from his high perch, saw him adjusting his holster while in his own car. The bus driver called the cops who proceeded to perform a felony stop on the guy. They pulled him out of his car at gunpoint, threw him to the ground, hog tied him, and hauled him off to jail. And all the time the guy's yelling, "I've got a permit! I've got a permit!" A few hours later, they let him go.

Too bad the geniuses at opencarry.com do not seem to be aware of this. They show RI as "green" on their map.

BTW, my quick visit to the site revealed that cops in Alexandria, VA routinely hassle people who are carrying openly. While VA has state pre-emption, it seems like the Alexandria cops are still trying to enforce their local ordinances.

I hope the guy planning the bike trip doesn't listen to some of the advice he got that VA was a cool open carry state.