If you NEED more than 5 shots you shouldn't be carrying...

Humanphibian · Post by **Humanphibian** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:52 pm

Here is a point to ponder....

9 shots with a .40 caliber round that MAY NOT HAVE EXPANDED PROPERLY is nothing more that 9 .40 caliber holes with minimal soft tissue trama.

Some.....I repeat some....departments choose duty rounds under political, economic and other factors rather than the performance of the round under real world conditions. It is ENTIRELY possible that the rounds clogged up and failed to provide adequate stopping power....dunno.

There are so many variables that come into play in a situation like this that you could keep this thread going for weeks with pure speculation alone.

Post by **Skiprr** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:55 pm

And note that the shooting was in January, and the report implies it was not daytime. It's very likely the assailant was wearing heavy clothing, maybe layers under a thick cowhide jacket. The Deputy's first two rounds taken at closer range may have had to pass through the truck door. We just can't know. These factors could make a significant difference in handgun effectiveness. But a one-shot handgun stop is pretty much a movie myth, regardless.

Humanphibian · Post by **Humanphibian** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:19 pm

Yip....with plugged or otherwise ineffective rounds the best you can hope for is a direct CNS hit, or perhaps a major blood vessel. But even with a major vessel damaged, it will take several seconds for "hydraulic" failure to occur, and several seconds is a LONNNNNG time with lead in the air.

txinvestigator · Post by **txinvestigator** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:28 pm

Contrary to what your instincts tell you, handguns are notoriously poor manstoppers.

Police training recounts MANY incidents of badguys taking multiple hits center mass and continuing a deadly assault.

I recall an incident in, I believe, Louisiana where a guy was hit 33 times before succumbing to a shot down thru the top of his head by a female officer he had picked up and was bear hugging.

Head shots are also VERY DIFFICULT when under that type of stress and someone is trying to kill you. It is easy at your favorite air-conditioned range with a piece of paper bad guy who just stands there.

austin · Post by **austin** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:00 pm

If the officer was a member of the pistol team, I doubt if those last 7 shots took more than 2 seconds to fire. I've seen guys empty their whole mag on moving dummies that were attacking them.

KBCraig · Post by **KBCraig** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:21 pm

txinvestigator wrote:I recall an incident in, I believe, Louisiana where a guy was hit 33 times before succumbing to a shot down thru the top of his head by a female officer he had picked up and was bear hugging.

I was going to cite that case. It was .38 Special, but that's still a lot of lead! And IIRC, he even survived the head shot!

Liberty · Post by **Liberty** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:12 pm

KBCraig wrote:
txinvestigator wrote:I recall an incident in, I believe, Louisiana where a guy was hit 33 times before succumbing to a shot down thru the top of his head by a female officer he had picked up and was bear hugging.
I was going to cite that case. It was .38 Special, but that's still a lot of lead! And IIRC, he even survived the head shot!

I knew they grew some tough people over there, but wow!

PhilR. · Post by **PhilR.** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:22 pm

phddan wrote:Sounds to me like he needs to practice head shots.
Placement, placement, placement.

Dan

Obviously a person who has never had someone trying to kill him. Placing head shots in practice is a lot easier than doing it when someone is shooting at you.

PhilR.

AV8R · Post by **AV8R** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:30 pm

Some years ago, a female officer in Dallas stopped a prison-weightlifter-type thug, who relieved her of her night stick and beat her severely with it. Her partner put six rounds of .357 in the guy's back without much effect. I'm of the opinion that, if it isn't your day to die, not even a doctor can kill you.

razoraggie · Post by **razoraggie** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:39 pm

AV8R wrote:Some years ago, a female officer in Dallas stopped a prison-weightlifter-type thug, who relieved her of her night stick and beat her severely with it. Her partner put six rounds of .357 in the guy's back without much effect. I'm of the opinion that, if it isn't your day to die, not even a doctor can kill you.

If it's not you're day....it's not you're day.

I was watching Miami Ink last week and there was an individual that fell from a 13th story hallway window at his hotel and survived with a broken collar bone. God was with that man for sure.

Also, you have to keep in mind that if some one if jacked-up on PCP or Meth, you would pretty much have to strike them with a "perfect shot" to get them to stop in their tracks. This is why extra mags can be life saving. Stopping the threat can be more than 1 mag's worth in my opinion. A .22 can be just a deadly as a .454. Even a better reason to PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE!!!!

fm2 · Post by **fm2** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:54 pm

txinvestigator wrote:Contrary to what your instincts tell you, handguns are notoriously poor manstoppers.

Police training recounts MANY incidents of badguys taking multiple hits center mass and continuing a deadly assault.

Head shots are also VERY DIFFICULT when under that type of stress and someone is trying to kill you. It is easy at your favorite air-conditioned range with a piece of paper bad guy who just stands there.

Amen! It's just a pistol.

Good move on the officer doing a tac reload during the fight.

phddan · Post by **phddan** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:26 am

txinvestigator wrote:Contrary to what your instincts tell you, handguns are notoriously poor manstoppers.

Police training recounts MANY incidents of badguys taking multiple hits center mass and continuing a deadly assault.

I recall an incident in, I believe, Louisiana where a guy was hit 33 times before succumbing to a shot down thru the top of his head by a female officer he had picked up and was bear hugging.

Head shots are also VERY DIFFICULT when under that type of stress and someone is trying to kill you. It is easy at your favorite air-conditioned range with a piece of paper bad guy who just stands there.

Roll your eyes all you want.

"Contrary to what your instincts tell you, handguns are notoriously poor manstoppers."

This I know and understand.

"Police training recounts MANY incidents of badguys taking multiple hits center mass and continuing a deadly assault.'

This I know and understand also.

"I recall an incident in, I believe, Louisiana where a guy was hit 33 times before succumbing to a shot down thru the top of his head by a female officer he had picked up and was bear hugging.

Head shot, you say???

"Head shots are also VERY DIFFICULT when under that type of stress and someone is trying to kill you."

This I know and understand also.

"It is easy at your favorite air-conditioned range with a piece of paper bad guy who just stands there.

[/quote]"

The only time I am at a air-conditioned range is when I qualify for Chl.

I do alot of practice with 2 + 1. Mozambique drill, I do believe it is called. I do it stationary and on the move at varying distances. Personally I think that everyone should. But, to each his own.
If you practice like you fight, its a lot easier to fight like you practice. Something along the lines of reverting back to training when your under stress. But you have probably heard that before, somewhere.

Dan

Humanphibian · Post by **Humanphibian** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:41 am

I got a head shot drill for ya....

Get a helium filled balloon approx 8" in diameter with a 3' string, and clip it to a target board on a breezy afternoon. Run 2or 3 100 yard wind sprints.....THEN

see how long it takes to hit it...........

Bear in mind that you are responsible for EVERY round that goes downrange, because in real world situation.........there will be no backstop.

COM shots are PROVEN to be the best option with a handgun, period. Leave the headshots for the guys with long guns and optics.....or Hollywood.

Wildscar · Post by **Wildscar** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:58 am

Humanphibian wrote:I got a head shot drill for ya....

Get a helium filled balloon approx 8" in diameter with a 3' string, and clip it to a target board on a breezy afternoon. Run 2or 3 100 yard wind sprints.....THEN

see how long it takes to hit it...........

Bear in mind that you are responsible for EVERY round that goes downrange, because in real world situation.........there will be no backstop.

COM shots are PROVEN to be the best option with a handgun, period. Leave the headshots for the guys with long guns and optics.....or Hollywood.

Now that would make for a very interesting IDPA stage. Tie one to every target and see how well you do then.

phddan · Post by **phddan** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:30 am

Humanphibian wrote:I got a head shot drill for ya....

Get a helium filled balloon approx 8" in diameter with a 3' string, and clip it to a target board on a breezy afternoon. Run 2or 3 100 yard wind sprints.....THEN

see how long it takes to hit it...........

Bear in mind that you are responsible for EVERY round that goes downrange, because in real world situation.........there will be no backstop.

COM shots are PROVEN to be the best option with a handgun, period. Leave the headshots for the guys with long guns and optics.....or Hollywood.

"Bear in mind that you are responsible for EVERY round that goes downrange, because in real world situation.........there will be no backstop.

Same as with COL shots, your point?

"COM shots are PROVEN to be the best option with a handgun, period."

Unless the bad guy is hyped up on drugs, or is wearing body armor. Case in point, the CHLer at that courthouse shooting.

"Leave the headshots for the guys with long guns and optics.....or Hollywood."

No thanks. I take responsibility for my own protection. And I own some nice long guns with optics, thank you.
Now, where you are going with the Hollywood comment, defies me.

Dan