bullpup conversion kit for mossberg 500

[aaangel]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v957V0NwF-Q" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

finally they're out. thinking about this...i have a mossberg 500 underneath my safe somewhere. any input guys?

[ShootDontTalk]

What purpose do you foresee for it?

If it is for self defense, I'd stick with the simplest and most proven design possible. A shotgun is the most difficult weapon to operate in a crisis situation. Anything that makes it possibly more difficult to operate, may fail or break at an inopportune moment, or more unreliable, could get you killed.

If it's just a toy, go for it.

[Charlies.Contingency]

What purpose do you foresee for it?

If it is for self defense, I'd stick with the simplest and most proven design possible. A shotgun is the most difficult weapon to operate in a crisis situation. Anything that makes it possibly more difficult to operate, may fail or break at an inopportune moment, or more unreliable, could get you killed.

If it's just a toy, go for it.

Where did you find that? I understand that it's not as simple as my point and shoot handguns, but flipping the safety off isn't that much more difficult. My shotgun is always the first gun I grab. My pistol is to give me enough time to get to my rifle or shotgun if I can't conquer the job at hand with it. I'm just confused about your statement, because even my wife works a shotgun better in a "a problem arises" moment then a handgun every time. (Besides, something about shouldering a 12ga instills sudden confidence, compared to holding a handgun. )

[teraph]

Charlies.Contingency,

I believe ShootDontTalk was referring to the manual of arms. Operating a modern rifle (AR, AK, FAL etc) is easiest due to the nature of the weapon.

Rifle:Insert mag,rack the charging handle once, safe to fire, aim and shoot x20-30
Pistol: Insert mag, rack slide, safety off (if manual safety), aim and shoot x7-17
Revolver: Insert rounds (speed loader), lock cylinder, aim and shoot x5-6
Shotgun: Insert shells (6+), rack, safe to fire, aim and shoot, rack (potential to short stroke, then jam, then fail to stop the threat), aim and shoot x6+

Obviously, when you remove the first step, it takes even less in the way of manipulation. But the point still stands, from a mechanical perspective, that a pump action shotgun can be the hardest weapon to operate under stress. It takes a lot of training to keep from causing a short stroke malfunction. Sometimes that malfunction is just no round in chamber, other times it is a double over feed (don't ask how it happened, but I have experienced it, it sucks to fix, especially in the middle of training).
When I compare a shotgun to my M4 or my AR, the manual of arms for a pump action shotgun is simply more difficult to execute due to the fine motor skills it requires. Especially in the context of needing multiple shots on target. Obviously that can be attenuated by a semi auto tube fed, or better yet mag fed, shotgun. Then you are still talking about recoil impulse. I have never shot a 20ga, only 12ga, and the recoil definitely takes a bit more work with. When I compare it with a semi auto 7.62x51, the 7.62 is way easier for me to control. Albeit, this is my opinion and experience, YMMV.

[ShootDontTalk]

Where did you find that?

Have you ever taken a defensive shotgun class? If you do, you will find it there. The activity most practiced is reloading under stress, followed by clearing jams.

Pump shotguns, as teraph said, are prone to short stroking - particularly by those who haven't had training. Reloading, even with nothing more than just a little thought about the issue, is the slowest operation and the easiest to get you killed.

The problems with pumps are only exceeded by double barrels, which may not have ejectors. Semi auto shotguns are the best of the breed. Remember, every firearm is a compromise. You don't get something for nothing.

[n5wd]

I've been considering modifying my Mossy 500 with the Bullpup Unlimited kit. I've been drooling over the KelTec KSG, and the B-U kit would be a lot less damage to the play money account. But, somehow, that top cover just looks flimsy, to me, and I'm wondering just how much use/abuse it would take before stress fractures start showing up.

[Charlies.Contingency]

Where did you find that?

Have you ever taken a defensive shotgun class? If you do, you will find it there. The activity most practiced is reloading under stress, followed by clearing jams.

Pump shotguns, as teraph said, are prone to short stroking - particularly by those who haven't had training. Reloading, even with nothing more than just a little thought about the issue, is the slowest operation and the easiest to get you killed.

The problems with pumps are only exceeded by double barrels, which may not have ejectors. Semi auto shotguns are the best of the breed. Remember, every firearm is a compromise. You don't get something for nothing.

I've never taken a "class," but I've been certified in multiple venues to carry a shotgun throughout my career.

I also know the time scale encountered in a life or death situation, and reloading a shotgun is an extremely rare occurrence. More of a "what-if" way of thinking it seems. I prefer my semi-auto due to pump any day of the week to a pump, but if you've had the chance to experience, it's also extremely useful to be able to reload (Add shells to the tube) without leaving myself vulnerable with only one round in the chamber as compared to a magazine fed weapon, or compared to a revolver which leaves you without the ability to shoot at all.

In my experience, for "beginners," it's easier to teach target acquisition and follow up shots with a semi-auto shotgun then a handgun, simply to the control-ability you will find with a long gun compared to a handgun. It's all the way you look at it, but I by far find it hard to believe that a shotgun is the "bottom line hardest weapon to operate in a crisis." Unless you consider loading a firearm before the firefight part of the equation, control-ability and being able to actually shoot your target are pretty high up there on my list of important things.

If you really want to compare them all evenly, look at the "what if's" for all of the platforms. Revolvers without a speed loader should be on the bottom IMO.

[Charlies.Contingency]

Charlies.Contingency,

I believe ShootDontTalk was referring to the manual of arms. Operating a modern rifle (AR, AK, FAL etc) is easiest due to the nature of the weapon.

Rifle:Insert mag,rack the charging handle once, safe to fire, aim and shoot x20-30
Pistol: Insert mag, rack slide, safety off (if manual safety), aim and shoot x7-17
Revolver: Insert rounds (speed loader), lock cylinder, aim and shoot x5-6
Shotgun: Insert shells (6+), rack, safe to fire, aim and shoot, rack (potential to short stroke, then jam, then fail to stop the threat), aim and shoot x6+

Obviously, when you remove the first step, it takes even less in the way of manipulation. But the point still stands, from a mechanical perspective, that a pump action shotgun can be the hardest weapon to operate under stress. It takes a lot of training to keep from causing a short stroke malfunction. Sometimes that malfunction is just no round in chamber, other times it is a double over feed (don't ask how it happened, but I have experienced it, it sucks to fix, especially in the middle of training).
When I compare a shotgun to my M4 or my AR, the manual of arms for a pump action shotgun is simply more difficult to execute due to the fine motor skills it requires. Especially in the context of needing multiple shots on target. Obviously that can be attenuated by a semi auto tube fed, or better yet mag fed, shotgun. Then you are still talking about recoil impulse. I have never shot a 20ga, only 12ga, and the recoil definitely takes a bit more work with. When I compare it with a semi auto 7.62x51, the 7.62 is way easier for me to control. Albeit, this is my opinion and experience, YMMV.

As far as the potential to fail, every weapon class has it's downfall. Improper grip on a handgun could cause you to stove pipe just as easily. If you want to talk about amateurs in a crisis of course.

A semi-auto just cured all of the ills of your paragraph except for the loading. In which case, if you're in a LoD situation and have to load your gun, you're likely going to expire before the bad guys give you a chance. Weapons at the ready, always, IMO.

An amateur controlling a .45 that they're not used to, will be dealing with the recoil as well. A semi-auto also helps to negate that factor. Depending on the situation and backdrops, I will almost always prefer a shotgun over a rifle. The way I was trained, a pistol was just to last me long enough to get me to my rifle or shotgun if a problem arises. All the years of having a shotgun as my primary, I find it hard to believe that it is the hardest to use, but that is my opinion on the matter.

If we're not talking about amateurs, and speaking about people in our shooting "classes," then it's a whole nuther' ballgame in itself. As I know where my muscle memory is best at, and a shotgun is my go to.

[ShootDontTalk]

I've been certified in a number of disciplines as well, but attending an intense training class, such as Clint Smith puts on at Thunder Ranch, is a bit different. Here is a link to a photo report by a retired LEO friend of mine on his experience.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/educational ... gun-class/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A great many current or retired officers attend his classes. He goes well beyond anything I ever got in a certification setting.

We'll have to disagree about leaving one round in any shotgun while reloading - unless you purposefully stop shooting before the weapon is empty and replenish the magazine and are able to do so without getting shot. A great many instructors spend a lot of time teaching reloading an empty shotgun and replenishing on the fly. I would suppose their experience tells them that such a situation is likely to happen. It is a fine motor skill that takes a lot of muscle memory to accomplish.

But of course, none of this applies to a homeowner who might have to face 4 home invaders. Assuming you're not going to reload a shotgun leaves precious little margin for error. As for me, I'd rather know I can accomplish that task with a minimum of delay. The rifle puts me in a better position because I have 3X the ammunition in the gun and reloads can be accomplished very quickly.

[Charlies.Contingency]

I've been certified in a number of disciplines as well, but attending an intense training class, such as Clint Smith puts on at Thunder Ranch, is a bit different. Here is a link to a photo report by a retired LEO friend of mine on his experience.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/educational ... gun-class/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A great many current or retired officers attend his classes. He goes well beyond anything I ever got in a certification setting.

We'll have to disagree about leaving one round in any shotgun while reloading - unless you purposefully stop shooting before the weapon is empty and replenish the magazine and are able to do so without getting shot. A great many instructors spend a lot of time teaching reloading an empty shotgun and replenishing on the fly. I would suppose their experience tells them that such a situation is likely to happen. It is a fine motor skill that takes a lot of muscle memory to accomplish.

But of course, none of this applies to a homeowner who might have to face 4 home invaders. Assuming you're not going to reload a shotgun leaves precious little margin for error. As for me, I'd rather know I can accomplish that task with a minimum of delay. The rifle puts me in a better position because I have 3X the ammunition in the gun and reloads can be accomplished very quickly.

Of course. And as you say, a rifle has it's advantages. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just opinionated towards a shotgun, especially my semi-auto's for home defense. I find that the advantages of a shotgun in a close range situation, especially in hallways and such, one of the most formidable weapons there is. We all know this of course, but we are both opinionated one way or the other. As you (seemingly to me) prefer to go to a rifle. We all have our strategies, tactics, and discipline, but the training is the key that puts them all together.

Thanks for your insight, in the end, it's all opinions, and I humbly respect yours.

[ShootDontTalk]

Of course. And as you say, a rifle has it's advantages. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just opinionated towards a shotgun, especially my semi-auto's for home defense. I find that the advantages of a shotgun in a close range situation, especially in hallways and such, one of the most formidable weapons there is. We all know this of course, but we are both opinionated one way or the other. As you (seemingly to me) prefer to go to a rifle. We all have our strategies, tactics, and discipline, but the training is the key that puts them all together.

Thanks for your insight, in the end, it's all opinions, and I humbly respect yours.

My compliments sir. Well said.

Actually I prefer a shotgun. And yes, I prefer my 930SPX to any of my pumps. My wife loves it because it is soft shooting.

I suppose I am just a life-long Boy Scout. I have an AR-15 at bedside as well - with two magazines tied together.

I conclude my comments by echoing you comment: training, training, training. Thank you.

[Charlies.Contingency]

Of course. And as you say, a rifle has it's advantages. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just opinionated towards a shotgun, especially my semi-auto's for home defense. I find that the advantages of a shotgun in a close range situation, especially in hallways and such, one of the most formidable weapons there is. We all know this of course, but we are both opinionated one way or the other. As you (seemingly to me) prefer to go to a rifle. We all have our strategies, tactics, and discipline, but the training is the key that puts them all together.

Thanks for your insight, in the end, it's all opinions, and I humbly respect yours.

My compliments sir. Well said.

Actually I prefer a shotgun. And yes, I prefer my 930SPX to any of my pumps. My wife loves it because it is soft shooting.

I suppose I am just a life-long Boy Scout. I have an AR-15 at bedside as well - with two magazines tied together.

I conclude my comments by echoing you comment: training, training, training. Thank you.

Nothing can replace muscle memory! I'm a die hard 12ga door knocker, so when I come a knocking, there ain't no stoppin'! I never got used to the whole rifle thing. Anyways, back to subject! A bullpup on a good quality semi-auto would get my attention, but the M500 is not for me.

[JSThane]

I've not dealt with any myself, but from what I've heard, the bullpup conversion kits tend to have horrible triggers. Even the KSG's suffered somewhat, I understand. The issue is that the trigger is so far forward of the action that you've got to have a long trigger linkage, which introduces plenty of places for the trigger mechanism to bind, get gritty, or stack. Additionally, if you're converting a standard shotgun to bullpup, odds are, you're making it unusable to left-handed people, who'd wind up ejecting a spent hull into their ear (I believe Ithaca makes a downward-ejecting pump, but never heard of one of those being converted to bullpup). And finally, again from what I've heard, recoil tends to be ... "brisker" ... on a bullpup shotgun than a traditional one.

For me, I'll stick with a traditional pump gun for my shotgunning needs.