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Posted: **Fri May 09, 2008 7:54 pm**

Venus Pax wrote:As for my sweatpants, they're the drawstring kind. My holster is a comp-tac kydex one. I can't remember the exact name, but it's a more basic IWB. I've drawn from it in the house several times, and this set-up works well for a simple walk. I wouldn't do this if the sweatpants were merely the elastic bands.

How does your holster attach to your sweatpants? Does the holster clip onto a belt worn outside or under the sweatpants? Or does the holster "ride" directly on the sweatpants?

Speaking for myself, I am somewhat picky about holsters not being able to be pulled off or easily articulated off of belts. On my C-TAC, I insisted upon belt clips that completely wrap around the belt so the holster cannot be easily ripped off the belt mid-FUT. I know some people who seem to completely eschew Kydex in favor of leather because of Kydex's comparative weakness (relative to leather) when things get really physical.

Posted: **Fri May 09, 2008 10:00 pm**

The Annoyed Man wrote:I'm a pretty gregarious guy myself, and I'm one of those types who is likely to strike up friendly a conversation with a total stranger just because I enjoy meeting new people and hearing what they have to say. That being said, I'm smart enough to understand "NO" when I hear it, and to not force my conversation on someone who isn't interested. If someone doesn't want to talk to me, I'm good with that. Doesn't hurt my feelings one bit.

I think the most disturbing thing about your incident is that the one guy didn't seem to know the meaning of "NO," and he kept trying to close the distance between the two of you. It may be perfectly acceptable in other counties, but in our culture, it is verboten to invade another's personal space without an invitation, and our culture's definition of "personal space" is considerably more generous than in other cultures. Invading another's personal space without invitation is disrespectful. Repeatedly trying to invade it after being warned off is downright hostile, and the invader ought not to be surprised if the results are unpleasant for him.

It seems like your main tactical error was in allowing yourself to get boxed in, and you're already aware of that one. I'll wager that it's not a scenario you'll allow to play out again, should you be so unfortunate as to be confronted this way again. Other than not repeating that mistake, the only thing I would have done differently in your shoes would have been to be very vocal, and very loud. As others have mentioned, I think that a loudly shouted "BACK OFF AND DO NOT COME ANY CLOSER TO ME!!" would have alerted neighbors and potential witnesses to give your situation their attention, and it would have alerted the bad
actors that their game was no longer a secret to anybody.

I'm glad it turned out OK for you in the end.

Great post!

Another gregarious guy,
Gregg

Posted: **Fri May 09, 2008 11:37 pm**

Lots of great discussion on this thread.

Suggestions about walking off, is good. You could even "play it up" by offering up an excuse, I left the water running, forgot my watch/cell/pager/kitchen timer (when you first felt something amiss). Your hand at your waist you could feign intestinal distress, IBS, etc...and have a reason to have your hand on, or close to your gun.

One idea is to ask them to give you a little space to make you feel a little more comfortable; maybe you are contagious from a recent bought of illness. This request is a good way to test their intentions. If they still seem dodgy, then up the volume, use more forceful language, project strong body language, and get your hands up.

This DVD has a lot of great information for dealing with similar situation.
http://www.mdtactical.com/ShivWorks/dvd_puc.html

BG's practice this "meat test" all the time. What kind of body language were they giving you? What was the guy in the back doing; did he participate in the conversation? What did the guy in front, talking to you, do to make you suspect he had something in his waistband?

Posted: **Sat May 10, 2008 1:06 pm**

yerasimos wrote:How does your holster attach to your sweatpants?

The holster is an IWB kydex holster made by CompTac. I wear it Inside the waist band with the clip showing over the waist band. (T-shirt, however, covers the clip.) The kydex provides a fast draw, and it doesn't come off of my sweat pants when I draw; it stays put.

Posted: **Sat May 10, 2008 1:14 pm**

fm2 wrote: What kind of body language were they giving you? What was the guy in the back doing; did he participate in the conversation? What did the guy in front, talking to you, do to make you suspect he had something in his waistband?

As far as body language, he seemed a little "slow on the draw," as if he were mildly high or slightly intoxicated. When I was passing him from a five foot distance, his hand hovered a bit unnaturally around his waistband on his left-hand side, which is what made me suspect he had something to hide.

Posted: **Sat May 10, 2008 3:39 pm**

Venus,

I too am glad you are safe.

+1 on your situational awareness and the way you handled yourself.

Now that I know what gregarious means, Texans probably are high on the scale. I must also state that any well intentioned Texas gentleman will go out of his way to not make a lady nervous by his actions or words. Anyone who does, IMHO, needs to be watched and avoided. You did this well. Maybe a little more forcefully is necessary at times. I too have verbally warned others to stay away and leave me alone.

Also, IMHO, until Mars is up to speed, I think the best thing is find a safety companion or minimize time outside if strangers are present. Apartments are horrible for transients.

Anygunanywhere

Posted: **Sat May 10, 2008 3:48 pm**

I had an encounter with one of these well trained ladies a few years ago and it was disconcerting, to say the least.

I had filled up my truck at a Shell station and when I went to restart it, the battery was dead.

There was a lady fueling on the other side, at the pumps on the opposite end of the island.

I didn't approach her, I simply stepped to her side of the pumps, still about 15-20' away.

I asked her if she had a set of jumper cables. Now she could see my hood up and it should have been obvious that I had some kind of difficulty.

Anyway, she said very loudly, "Leave me alone, get away from me!"

I guess she had a larger comfort zone than most.

Thankfully, the next vehicle was a lady driving a pickup who said, "you need any help" and provided the jumper cables.

The words do work!!

Posted: **Sat May 10, 2008 8:24 pm**

Mike1951 wrote:I asked her if she had a set of jumper cables. Now she could see my hood up and it should have been obvious that I had some kind of difficulty.

Anyway, she said very loudly, "Leave me alone, get away from me!"

Men have been known to use the "my car won't start" excuse to initiate an attack. She probably knew about that and thought you were up to something.

Posted: **Sat May 10, 2008 8:39 pm**

Venus Pax wrote:She probably knew about that and thought you were up to something.

Yep! Trying to borrow a set of jumper cables.

Posted: **Sun May 11, 2008 7:18 am**

We are touching on something that has bothered me for quite a while.
we as a society in America have become very suspicious of strangers we don't trust them. I grew up in a rural New England town. Sometimes people came by and wanted to use a phone to get a towtruck or maybe some water for a leaky radiator. As a teenager I often helped push folks out of a snowbank, or got helped out of a snow bank. I had given and received many jumps to get my car started. Hitchhiking was a legitimate means of transportation.

I don't believe for a minute we are a more evil nation. We had Charlie Manson the Weatherman and the Boston Strangler. While we didn't have MS-13 we had the mafia. Yet people were nicer to strangers. There was more trust. Shucks We didn't even have a lock on our doors growing up. Its not just everyone else, its me too. I am not likely to pick up a kid hitchhiking any more than anyone else.

Those who are younger than I might recall some of the American authors who wrote of times gone by. Steinbeck and Twain both wrote a lot of interactions of their charactors with strangers.

It bothers me because we really have lost something in this country, and most folks aren't really aware of what we have lost.
I am going on the road today again. I think I will try to be a little more neighborly to strangers, No, I won't pick up any hitchhikers, but maybe just a few more friendly greetings.

There has to be a line of where to be neighborly and where to be responsible for my safety and welfare of my family.

Posted: **Sun May 11, 2008 8:05 am**

Liberty wrote:We are touching on something that has bothered me for quite a while.
we as a society in America have become very suspicious of strangers we don't trust them....

I don't believe for a minute we are a more evil nation. We had Charlie Manson the Weatherman and the Boston Strangler. While we didn't have MS-13 we had the mafia. Yet people were nicer to strangers. There was more trust...

I agree that we have lost a sense of community. There are all kinds of sociological explanations for that.

For me, at least the bottom line is the increase in crime. Here is a table of crime rates in the state of New York from 1965 to 2006: http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/nycrime.htm

The rate of murder more than tripled between 1965 (when it was already on an upward trend) to 1990. Granted, a lot of that was crack dealers killing each other, but a lot was also victimization of innocent people. Rates of other violent crimes also increased significantly.

I stand by what I said about men approaching women. A girl or woman from age 12 to 50 can spend only about ten minutes on foot around 33rd and Seawall in Galveston to be approached by a man who thinks she is a streetwalker. It has happened to women that I know. I admit that's a rather extreme example, but similar things happen all the time.

- Jim

Posted: **Sun May 11, 2008 8:51 am**

We are touching on something that has bothered me for quite a while. We as a society in America have become very suspicious of strangers we don't trust them.

Last week I took a day off work. In the afternoon, I drove past a local elementary school around 3:30PM. There must have been 200 cars lined up all the way down the street. Parents waiting to pick up their kids. I remembered the days when my brothers and I would walk to school - from kindergarden through high school. I though that it is sad that kids have to be chauffeured to and from school everyday.

Posted: **Sun May 11, 2008 9:01 am**

seamusTX wrote:
Liberty wrote:We are touching on something that has bothered me for quite a while.
we as a society in America have become very suspicious of strangers we don't trust them....

I don't believe for a minute we are a more evil nation. We had Charlie Manson the Weatherman and the Boston Strangler. While we didn't have MS-13 we had the mafia. Yet people were nicer to strangers. There was more trust...
I agree that we have lost a sense of community. There are all kinds of sociological explanations for that.

For me, at least the bottom line is the increase in crime. Here is a table of crime rates in the state of New York from 1965 to 2006: http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/nycrime.htm

The rate of murder more than tripled between 1965 (when it was already on an upward trend) to 1990. Granted, a lot of that was crack dealers killing each other, but a lot was also victimization of innocent people. Rates of other violent crimes also increased significantly.

I stand by what I said about men approaching women. A girl or woman from age 12 to 50 can spend only about ten minutes on foot around 33rd and Seawall in Galveston to be approached by a man who thinks she is a streetwalker. It has happened to women that I know.

- Jim

The statistics also show that the crime rate fell from 1995 to 2006 and by 2006 they were about the same level as they were in 1965. The figures demonstrate how much local government can influence the crime rates.

I really don't recommend to anyone that they make themselves approachable to strangers, It just bothers me a bit to see where we have come too. and am trying to understand why.

I can't understand Galveston, they have plenty of cops to run speed traps, yet they can't do anything about selling drugs on the streets. and prostitution which is practically sanctioned here, but if one has a a single beer on the seawall they are sure to get busted.

Posted: **Sun May 11, 2008 9:49 am**

Liberty wrote:The statistics also show that the crime rate fell from 1995 to 2006 and by 2006 they were about the same level as they were in 1965. The figures demonstrate how much local government can influence the crime rates.

That's true. The city of New York finally got serious about effective policing when Mr. Giuliani was mayor.

Additional factors are the decline in the 15- to 25-year-old population, which commits most violent crime, and the "maturing" of the drug market.

However, unline the 1950s and 60s, we now have 24-hour-a-day national news that sensationalizes crime everywhere in the country. Many people think the crime rate is higher than it is.

- Jim
[Edited to correct spelling]

Posted: **Sun May 11, 2008 12:39 pm**

Liberty wrote: While we didn't have MS-13 we had the mafia.

From what I know about this, the mafia would not kill you while you were filling up your car for wearing the wrong color or pausing a glance a little too long in their direction and "disrespecting" them.

I used to be a lot more neighborly too but after traveling and living in many places, not anymore.

The risk is not worth it.

Anygunanywhere

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