Interview

[Venus Pax]

Usually, interviews are a good thing. I was the subject of one a few nights ago that I would have preferred to avoid.

We're still in an apartment while waiting on our house to close. I'm not crazy about apartments; it's difficult to know who belongs there and who doesn't. It's a stark contrast from the years I spent in the country, where I knew exactly who belonged on my section of the road and who didn't.

Just before going to bed each night, one of us will take our dog out to use the RR. This has to be done on a leash, since we don't have a yard.

I holstered my gun in some sweatpants, covered it all with one of Mars' old t-shirts, and stepped outside. Like always, I looked all around while I shut the door behind me. Two men were hanging around the opposite staircase. They saw me and were aware that I noticed them. I went the opposite direction to let my dog take care of his business. They both got up and walked over to talk to me. It's 10:30ish.

One in particular keeps trying to get close to me while talking. I make it a point to lengthen the distance. Each time he walks closer, I walk further away. I respond to what he says/asks very shortly. I keep my eyes on him. At one point, I discover that I'm nearly closed in an area, and that I would have to turn around and fiddle with the latch to get out of the gate. I keep my eyes on him as I walk past him, but the five foot distance makes me rather uncomfortable. I notice his hand is a bit close to his waist band, and stop at one point. My hand instinctively goes toward my own waistband and I pass him, still keeping my eye on him.

He continues to try to make conversation, but I walk in another direction with my back to him, but looking over my shoulder, with my hand at my waistband, ready to raise my shirt and draw if I need to.

He finally gives up and goes back toward his original area. I rounded up the dog and got inside. I was fuming mad over the fact that I was even in that situation.

This all occurred rather quickly, but felt like an eternity while it was happening. This did not feel like a "let's meet the neighbor" type of conversation. I honestly felt like he was trying to close the distance in order to attack me, for whatever reason.

Here is my dilemma: At what point would I have needed to draw? I did not see a weapon at any time, but suspected, based solely on his behavior, that he had something in his waistband. There were also two of them, and only one of me. (Although one stayed further back, and even went back to his original area before the other.)
When I run across scenarios, either real or imagined, I try to determine the exact time I would need to draw. Waiting too late to draw can cost a person her/his life, but drawing too soon poses it's own array of issues.

What would you have done?

[nedmoore]

What did the conversation consist of? Why did you feel threatened?

[Briankey]

I think you did the right thing, You tried to keep your distance, the BG obviously was out for something.
I also run scenarios in my head, and one thing I would always try to do, that's keep my weapon which is on my rightside as far away as I can from the BG, if your confronted by someone you don't feel comfortable with, or just anyone, try turning your body with your firearm away from that Person, I carry on my rightside, so I always position myself where that person is on my left, and I usually have my arm pressed against the weapon.

In your Situation, I would have just walked off, I have no trouble being rude if I sense impending trouble from someone.
I have no problem putting my hand under my shirt, its all about your safety.
If you had to pull on the guy, and you got the quicker drop on him, he could have took off running scared.
I think if you feel your life, or safety is in jeopardy, you pull it.


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e is my dilemma: At what point would I have needed to draw? I did not see a weapon at any time, but suspected, based solely on his behavior, that he had something in
What would you have done?[/quote]

[ELB]

Some thoughts:

- If your threat warning radar is going off, pay attention to it. Get out of the ambush zone. Now.

- Next time if you step out the door and see someone who sets off your little warning bell (especially the same guys) consider going back in and walking the dog a little later. It would rankle me -- I hate to modify my actions because of some potential scumbag -- but in some cases might be the wisest course. (Heck, you and I both carry handguns because of potential scumbags).

- I know Mars has the gimpy knee, but maybe both of you should walk the dog. At the very least have him outside the door where he can provide overwatch with cell phone in hand and handgun concealed and ready.

- The training I have had tells me to shut off such conversations as quickly and firmly as possible. No profanity or threats of violence, just a firm, loud "SORRY, I CAN'T HELP YOU, PLEASE LEAVE ME ALONE" repeated as necessary while exiting the area a fast as possible. The firm loud command does two things -- let's the unwanted one know you are onto him and he is unwanted, and lets everyone in the area -- i.e. potential witnesses -- in on who is the aggressor and who is the potential victim. This will be handy if things escalate. Any reasonable male with innocent intentions would be moving on at this point.

- Move forcefully and confidently. Quick decisive moves make you look less like a victim, and may take a potential aggressor by surprise.

- Keep the dog between you and other people. Even if he is a marshmallow that would gladly welcome Charlse Manson into your house, he at least provides an obstacle between you and others that they have to get thru/over/around to get to you. If there are posts or trash cans, use them as obstacles. That gives you just that much more warning, that little bit of an edge.

- And BTW, don't hesitate to drop the leash in order to have both hands free to defend yourself. May sound obvious, but there's a great story on another forum by a guy who came home from the grocery store, found a burglar in his apartment, faced the guy down, chased him off -- all the while holding a sack of groceries. He even shifted it from one arm to the other so he could draw. Afterwards, he couldn't believe he had held on to the groceries, but it is so ingrained in us to not drop stuff like that he didn't even think about it at the time.

- Pepper spray can be a handy intermediate force option. If you don't have some, get some. If these guys had boxed you in, and refused to move ("LEAVE ME ALONE. BACK OFF AND LET ME PASS.") I would not hesitate to spray them -- and then boogie back to the apartment and call the cops. It is not necessarily fair, but in the aftermath I believe the cops are more likely to assume you are the victim defending yourself, just because you are the gal and the other two are guys. Add to this anyone who saw or heard you repeatedly telling them "SORRY, I CAN'T HELP YOU, PLEASE LEAVE ME ALONE" as witnesses, and I think you would be in at least a reasonable position to explain use of (non-lethal) force. before now. And again, any man with innocent intentions who inadvertently traps you is going to get out of the way when you sound off with the "LEAVE ME ALONE" drill...

- When should you draw? When you think you are in imminent danger of life or limb. In this case? Tough call. Certainly if any weapon appears. If he grabs you or lunges at you? I would not blame you for drawing, but I can't say how the cops and the DA would interpret that. Two guys versus one gal sounds pretty dangerous to me. Heck, two guys versus ME doesn't sound too good!

Good luck, hope you can close soon.

[WildBill]

Venus -
First, I am glad you are okay. It sounds like you had a very scary experience.

I think ELB's suggestions are right on target. Particularly:

The training I have had tells me to shut off such conversations as quickly and firmly as possible. No profanity or threats of violence, just a firm, loud "SORRY, I CAN'T HELP YOU, PLEASE LEAVE ME ALONE" repeated as necessary while exiting the area a fast as possible. The firm loud command does two things -- let's the unwanted one know you are onto him and he is unwanted, and lets everyone in the area -- i.e. potential witnesses -- in on who is the aggressor and who is the potential victim. This will be handy if things escalate. Any reasonable male with innocent intentions would be moving on at this point.

I have also been taught this in personal protection classes. Shutting off conversations is important in that BGs will try to use them as a diversion and sympathy. It also gives the message that you are not interested in "an interview." The firm loud command gives the BGs an opportunity to retreat and stop aggressive behavior. It puts you more in command of the situation by ordering them to stop what they are doing. Their behaviour after such warning with give you information that will determine your next response.

[seamusTX]

I agree with ELB also. I want to add a couple of things:

There is no legitimate reason for men who are hanging around at 10:30 PM to start a conversation with a woman they are not acquainted with. They either have bad intentions or are drunk or nuts.

Can you possibly find another dog owner in this apartment to walk with? If not, can your dog "go to bed" at a more reasonable hour?

- Jim

[red2000vette]

This a good discussion topic. I welcome an exchange of ideas and opinions on situations such as this. I'm certain that there are threatening stiuations I haven't even thought of. Let's keep this thread going.

You are right to have questioned that whole scenario and your reaction to it. If you had given these chaps a glimpse of your weapon and they had no other intention other than to kill time chatting - you would have committed a statutory crime in doing so. Your angst was compounded in that you had maneuvered yourself into a corner and had nowhere to go. That may have been your mistake in hindsight.

WOW. I'm sure we're all going to be confronted with situations like this one sooner than later!

[yerasimos]

I generally agree with the other gentlemen's analyses.

One thing I wish to add that I did not see addressed: please desist from carrying a gun tucked into sweatpants. I am concerned that if an "interview" ever goes hands-on and gets physical (attempted robbery, rape, kidnapping, etc), it is very possible for the gun to get dumped on the ground where anyone can grab it.

If you must go outside without a proper holster, get one of those gun-packer fanny packs to carry your handgun. Perhaps the mere appearance of such a rig may discourage additional "interviews"---though do not count on this, of course.

Given a choice between a small can of pepper spray carried in hand and a handgun tucked into sweatpants (that is to say, I can only choose one of these exact options), I will carry the pepper spray in hand.

Edited to add: perhaps I misunderstood the original poster's method of carry with the sweatpants. If so, please clarify.

[aardwolf]

There is no legitimate reason for men who are hanging around at 10:30 PM to start a conversation with a woman they are not acquainted with. They either have bad intentions or are drunk or nuts.

I disagree. There are hundreds of legitimate reasons to start a conversation with people you don't know.

If she told them to leave her alone then I agree with you. On the other hand, if she has a conversation with them, they have a legitimate reason to continue the conversation and walk with her. Don't give them that opening. I agree with ELB that we're not required to talk to strangers and being able to shut down those unwanted interactions is important.

[seamusTX]

The only non-threatening approaches from strangers that I experience are people asking for directions, handing out political literature, or proselytizing. I would not expect anything like that at 10:30 PM in an apartment complex.

The people asking directions usually look like lost tourists.

All the others were begging, trying to sell something, running scams, or possibly sizing me up for a robbery.

I'm wondering what this "interview" was about.

I also think it's fundamentally threatening for men to approach women that they don't know in this kind of situation. Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I can remember a time when people of the opposite sex did not start unnecessary conversations if they had not been introduced.

- Jim

[The Annoyed Man]

I'm a pretty gregarious guy myself, and I'm one of those types who is likely to strike up friendly a conversation with a total stranger just because I enjoy meeting new people and hearing what they have to say. That being said, I'm smart enough to understand "NO" when I hear it, and to not force my conversation on someone who isn't interested. If someone doesn't want to talk to me, I'm good with that. Doesn't hurt my feelings one bit.

I think the most disturbing thing about your incident is that the one guy didn't seem to know the meaning of "NO," and he kept trying to close the distance between the two of you. It may be perfectly acceptable in other counties, but in our culture, it is verboten to invade another's personal space without an invitation, and our culture's definition of "personal space" is considerably more generous than in other cultures. Invading another's personal space without invitation is disrespectful. Repeatedly trying to invade it after being warned off is downright hostile, and the invader ought not to be surprised if the results are unpleasant for him.

It seems like your main tactical error was in allowing yourself to get boxed in, and you're already aware of that one. I'll wager that it's not a scenario you'll allow to play out again, should you be so unfortunate as to be confronted this way again. Other than not repeating that mistake, the only thing I would have done differently in your shoes would have been to be very vocal, and very loud. As others have mentioned, I think that a loudly shouted "BACK OFF AND DO NOT COME ANY CLOSER TO ME!!" would have alerted neighbors and potential witnesses to give your situation their attention, and it would have alerted the bad actors that their game was no longer a secret to anybody.

I'm glad it turned out OK for you in the end.

[barres]

One other suggestion, since you stated that this occurred at about 10:30'ish at night. Carry a small bright flashlight that can quickly be turned on and off. A shot of a Surefire or similar in his eyes would have bought you several seconds to get away before he could have seen in which direction you went off. However, it would be exceedingly difficult to deploy the flashlight, have pepper spray ready, keep control of Fluffy, and have a hand free to go to your gun if the need arises all at the same time.

Don't feel like we're ganging up on you. No one got shot, and you made it home safe and sound. Those are the important things. Could things have gone a little better, yes. But they could have gone a whole lot worse!

[WildBill]

One other suggestion, since you stated that this occurred at about 10:30'ish at night. Carry a small bright flashlight that can quickly be turned on and off. A shot of a Surefire or similar in his eyes would have bought you several seconds to get away before he could have seen in which direction you went off.

Another excellent idea. I have a Surefire Defender and I am still amazed at how much light it gives off. They are on the expensive side, but another self defense tool you shouldn't be without.

You have to careful with them as they are very powerful. One night I heard some noise outside the house and flashed the light through the partially-open blinds to see outside. The reflection off of the white blinds back into my eyes made me see spots. Fortunately for me it was only a cat!

[Venus Pax]

There are a lot of good responses here. Truthfully, there are many times in my life that I have been the target of an "interview," but it seldom gets this far. Usually, a firm, short answer and taking off in the opposite direction does the trick. I think the one guy's persistence kept me on alert more than anything; I'm accustomed to them giving up.

I'm with seamus; I don't think a man has any business striking up a conversation with anyone at this hour, especially given the location. I'm funny about this anyway, and will generally cut off conversations with men I don't know unless the location, event, and time are more suitable to such an interaction.

As for my sweatpants, they're the drawstring kind. My holster is a comp-tac kydex one. I can't remember the exact name, but it's a more basic IWB. I've drawn from it in the house several times, and this set-up works well for a simple walk. I wouldn't do this if the sweatpants were merely the elastic bands.


I hope we'll keep this conversation going. I think it will help other women on the board too; I think we tend to be the targets of crime more than men. However, we can all be targets, and we all get "interviewed" at some point or another. It's best to recognize it for what it is and have a game plan ready.

[Rokyudai]

Glad you are alright.

When reading your account, I wondered if perhaps one or both were under the influence of something.... they sounded a bit too disinhibited for sure. I mean, to approach a lady at night in a hallway, and come down the hall to start up a conversation, invade your space, ignore your body language, or your short replies, is a bit fishy. Of course, place this same scenario in a college bar, lose the dog, and that's some frat boy's Saturday night...but I digress.

Like you said, it didn't feel like a introduction or 'welcome neighbor' conversation. It sounds like it was a couple of sharks bumping potential prey. Maybe a crime of opportunity more than anything.

It's hard to say if I would have done anything different. Unfortunately a lot of us learn after the fact from unexpected experiences and sometimes vicariously through others accounts. I won't pretend to know any different. You tried to keep your distance but they closed in on you. You managed to say or present enough overt body language to demonstrate you were not as soft a target as they may have thought. That is all part of it, direct eye contact, a loud voice, short replies and body language that says, "I'm on my way. Go bother someone else. I'm not interested."

Have you seen either of these guys since? Change times (if fido can deal) to go out, or, find a different place maybe on the other side of the building. Make some real friends who you may see walking their dogs in the complex. Maybe you can arrange a 'doggy date' where you are all out there talking dogs and whatnot. Safety in numbers as they say. Ok.... I'm just throwing stuff out there to see if any of it sticks.

Keep us posted. Hope your husband is doing well.

Rok