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txmatt wrote:So we should give up our rights in order to keep from losing our rights?

txmatt wrote:Being a gun owner is NOT probable cause for a search or evidence of criminal activity and should not be treated as such!

My personal position is my house my rules and when it comes to any type of government official entering or searching my house the rule is very simple no warrant no entry no exceptions

Not sure why folks are getting upset with John L. There is no intrusion upon his rights if he agrees to cooperate with authorities. That is his right. It is called "free choice". I was under the impression that many of us support "free choice".

john L wrote:Guys, with all due respect, I see no harm in assisting law enforcement in the attempt to curtail the illegal trafficking of fire arms into Mexico. Yes, I too don't buy into to 90% lie that the press is tossing around to help the anti-gun weenies, but we'd all be lying to our selves if we ignored the fact that there is at least, a small number of criminals, that are trying to capitalize on the demand for guns in Mexico.

All my hardware is legal and I'd have no problems with showing recently purchased guns to law enforcement to prove that I wasn't involved with any illegal activity; as long as they were polite about it. I feel that is key here, it is our castle and they need to respect that; I'd ask for a warrant if they showed up and didn't show me the proper respect in my home.

Of course, you do have the right to refuse and have them get a warrant right off the bat, but in my opinion, that may just be feeding the far left with more ammo to use against us in the propaganda campaign. Just imagine the head lines; "U.S. Gun Owners Refuse To Help Law Enforcement Stop Trafficking". You guys do as you like, it's your right, but I'll cooperate until I feel I'm being treated unfairly. I'll get off my soap box now, please keep my beating above the belt..................

We aren't talking about normal LEO but feds, the worst kind of fed the ones who have played all kinds off illegal and dirty tricks to steal our guns away. I fear the BATFE stealing our rights away a lot more than I do some illegal immigrant. Remember It wasn't illegal aliens at Ruby Ridge or in Waco.

I'm not even sure if it isn't such a bad Idea for Mexican citizens to be able to arm themselves against their repressive government. The BATFE shouldn't even exist. There is no reason for them.

boomerang wrote:

Maybe the answer is to send more guns into Mexico so THE PEOPLE can defend themselves from the corrupt government and the cartels/gangs.

The real problem is that the Mexan Government is depriving their people of the right to arm themselves, and The BATFE wants to support the oppression.

I read reasonable people offering their opinions - is someone being defensive for someone else?

I agree with the "Do you have a warrant" refusal.

To me, unless they have a compelling reason, they should not be allowed to search my home.

A person's expression of their 2A Rights is not a reason to suspend their 4A rights.

However, if someone else chooses to allow someone to do so, that is completely up to them. They are free to do so, and I do not think less of them for doing so, because it will probably avoid more hassle. Personally, I am willing to be hassled more in order to keep my rights.

Personally, I carry a voice & video recorder on me at all times (It just happens to be built into my phone )
So the first thing I'd say if someone came to my door asking to see my guns would be "Hang on one second... *take out phone and record*... could you please repeat that? I sometimes have hearing problems and did not get anything you just said."

Lemme add a twist in the plot here...

Let's suppose you get your knock on the door, as we are all prepared to be "asked" by lawful authority to have access to our property...

We refuse, they insist, we whip out our recording devices, get our witnesses etc etc etc...

And then those authorities refuse to cooperate???

I have a sneeky feeling they will not proceed, and will inform you that we cannot record them (images and voices) for whatever reasons they can come up with...

Ironically, has anyone ever worked in a collections agency??? Or been called by one??? They will tell you that they can detect recording devices that you employ, to record them, and that it is illegal to do so...But we all know the laws of this state when it comes to protecting yourself when documenting your side of the story...

Just thought this would juice up the discussion...

I also want to ensure that we do not get too riled up about this...I do not advocate violence or the implying of against anyone or anything in regards to this sensitive subject...We are a group of very smart people, and that our ideas travel far...

I do not believe anything like this will get much legs in this state either...

But it is something that needs to be discussed if you wish...

If you are asked by the feds to show them your guns without a warrant its your free choice to do so or to refuse. However lets consider who is asking, how they are asking, why they are asking, and when they are asking. The BATFE has a long history of abusing their powers, authority, and people. Are they asking politely and are willing to take no for an answer? If they are not willing to accept no as an answer what are your intentions. Why would they be asking you, of all people, to show them your guns? Is it because you bought two handguns from the same dealer in a 5 day period, or is it something else (Perhaps your neighbor who doesn't like your dogs called you in as a right wing extremist)? Finally why are they asking you now. Is it to get you off balance or to put you at another disadvantage? Essentially I suggest that you get them to wait until you get a lawyer which will force them to either get a warrant OR cooperate on your terms so you can have more control and documentation of what happens. Please, what ever you do, remain polite and do not do anything they can interpret as a potentially violent threat as we do not need another Waco. Please note I am neither paranoid nor a lawyer, and my thoughts are based on my own reasoning and observations. Make your own decisions and live with the consequences.

Im trying to figure out how they know someone would have bought however many and what kind of guns?

[sarcarsm] I thought the 4473 wasn't a "registration" and that only the dealers kept them [/sarcarsm]

ninemm wrote:

The Annoyed Man wrote: In the first place, I probably wouldn't answer a call from a "private" caller i.d., which is what you usually get when you have an incoming call from any type of LEO.

I have service that refuses those calls. If you refuse to display a caller ID or block it manually,then you don't get to talk to me.
JL

AndyC wrote:

stevie_d_64 wrote:Andy...You ought to go get a couple of those USB stick "flash" drives...Easier that CD's in my opinion for this task...And if I know you, you may want to get drives with 8GB's on them...Yer gonna need it...

Not really - there was this tragic boating incident, you see, and.... oh - you too?

My neighbor's dog got mine. Chewed 'em up and left me nothing but peices...

Mithras61 wrote:

AndyC wrote:

stevie_d_64 wrote:Andy...You ought to go get a couple of those USB stick "flash" drives...Easier that CD's in my opinion for this task...And if I know you, you may want to get drives with 8GB's on them...Yer gonna need it...

Not really - there was this tragic boating incident, you see, and.... oh - you too?

My neighbor's dog got mine. Chewed 'em up and left me nothing but peices...

Yeah, and if you don't believe me...ask him!!!!

-geo

john L wrote:I feel that is key here, it is our castle and they need to respect that; I'd ask for a warrant if they showed up and didn't show me the proper respect in my home.

Since they are already showing disrespect for me in my home by showing up with the presumption that I can be intimidated into permitting a warrant-less search, I'm not sure how different my position is from yours. Sure, I live in a border state, but I'm 444 and 522 miles respectively from Laredo and McAllen - the two nearest border towns of any consquence to me. To put that in perspective, it is 500 miles from San Diego California to Cedar City, Utah. So what BATFE is proposing here is that they can harass lawful gun owners in Cedar City for the sins of people in San Diego. It simply doesn't wash. Therefore, the assertion that my collection is somehow involved in the illegal gun trade is preposterous on its face and in fact. That is why I would never allow any LEO to inspect my gun collection inside my home without a warrant.