In Border States, BATFE Asks: "May We See Your Guns?"

[stevie_d_64]

Y'all are just going to love this...

http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Feder ... px?id=4990" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Friday, June 19, 2009

NRA-ILA has recently received several calls from NRA members in border states who have been visited or called by agents of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. In some cases, agents have asked to enter these people's homes, and requested serial numbers of all firearms the members possess.

In each case, the agents were making inquiries based on the number of firearms these NRA members had recently bought, and in some cases the agents said they were asking because the members had bought types of guns that are frequently recovered in Mexico.

This kind of questioning may or may not be part of a legitimate criminal investigation. For example, when BATFE traces a gun seized after use in a crime, manufacturers' and dealers' records will normally lead to the first retail buyer of that gun, and investigators will have to interview the buyer to find out how the gun ended up in criminal hands. But in other cases, the questioning may simply be based on information in dealers' records, with agents trying to "profile" potentially suspicious purchases.

On the other hand, some of the agents have used heavy-handed tactics. One reportedly demanded that a gun owner return home early from a business trip, while another threatened to "report" an NRA member as "refusing to cooperate." That kind of behavior is outrageous and unprofessional.

Whether agents act appropriately or not, concerned gun owners should remember that all constitutional protections apply. Answering questions in this type of investigation is generally an individual choice. Most importantly, there are only a few relatively rare exceptions to the general Fourth Amendment requirement that law enforcement officials need a warrant to enter a home without the residents' consent. There is nothing wrong with politely, but firmly, asserting your rights.

If BATFE contacts you and you have any question about how to respond, you may want to consult a local attorney. NRA members may also call NRA-ILA's Office of Legislative Counsel at (703) 267-1161 for further information. Whether contacting a local attorney or NRA, be sure to provide as many details as possible, including the date, time, and location, agent's name, and specific questions asked.

[stevie_d_64]

Y'all know the drill...Document everything...Video, digital recording, collect license plate numbers of any vehicles they use, etc etc etc...

Make dupes of the information and lawyer up if it gets sticky...

You just can't make this stuff up...Keeps getting better and better...

Seems to me this is almost along the lines of a "census" fishing trip...

I guess I am not much into cooperating...

[The Annoyed Man]

My answer at the front door would be, "come back with a warrant." End of story. Nobody is coming into my home on any kind of fishing expedition without a warrant.

Also, my advice is that you maintain a current list of all firearms in your possession, including their serial numbers. You don't have a prayer of recovering an illegally confiscated weapon without that information, and a good lawyer.

[ninemm]

My answer at the front door would be, "come back with a warrant." End of story. Nobody is coming into my home on any kind of fishing expedition without a warrant.

Also, my advice is that you maintain a current list of all firearms in your possession, including their serial numbers. You don't have a prayer of recovering an illegally confiscated weapon without that information, and a good lawyer.

Alongside this, there's no way anyone would ever convince me in an unsolicited telephone call to divulge any information. In the first place, I probably wouldn't answer a call from a "private" caller i.d., which is what you usually get when you have an incoming call from any type of LEO.

[Piney]

Excellent advice - I'm going to go take digital pics of all my gear w/serial-numbers right now

I keep a copy of my firearms and other household items (pics, s/n ) on CDs-- one in the SD box, one in my hurricane bug out bag, and one at a friend's place in his safe.

I also keep s/n of my firearms stored in am email message on an email account in case I'm away from the house and one goes missing.

[stevie_d_64]

You guys are good!!!

Andy...You ought to go get a couple of those USB stick "flash" drives...Easier that CD's in my opinion for this task...And if I know you, you may want to get drives with 8GB's on them...Yer gonna need it...

[HankB]

I hope those keeping copies of their collections on electronic media are using some type of encryption . . . otherwise it can become a shopping list.

[Mike1951]

I hope those keeping copies of their collections on electronic media are using some type of encryption . . . otherwise it can become a shopping list.

I disagree! If the list is ever needed, it will have to display on insurance or police computers. Any burglary that gets your guns may get your computer, as well.

Having an encrypted disc that won't display is useless.

[john L]

Guys, with all due respect, I see no harm in assisting law enforcement in the attempt to curtail the illegal trafficking of fire arms into Mexico. Yes, I too don't buy into to 90% lie that the press is tossing around to help the anti-gun weenies, but we'd all be lying to our selves if we ignored the fact that there is at least, a small number of criminals, that are trying to capitalize on the demand for guns in Mexico.

All my hardware is legal and I'd have no problems with showing recently purchased guns to law enforcement to prove that I wasn't involved with any illegal activity; as long as they were polite about it. I feel that is key here, it is our castle and they need to respect that; I'd ask for a warrant if they showed up and didn't show me the proper respect in my home.

Of course, you do have the right to refuse and have them get a warrant right off the bat, but in my opinion, that may just be feeding the far left with more ammo to use against us in the propaganda campaign. Just imagine the head lines; "U.S. Gun Owners Refuse To Help Law Enforcement Stop Trafficking". You guys do as you like, it's your right, but I'll cooperate until I feel I'm being treated unfairly. I'll get off my soap box now, please keep my beating above the belt..................

[Abraham]

john L,

If that's what you would do you have every right.

It's quite thought provoking to consider having uninvited government agents coming into our homes because "Mexico" is having gun problems.

I'm with the The Annoyed Man on how such a scenario would play with me.

I'm a conservative/pro-law enforcement kind of guy, but this approach has way too much abuse of citizens potential for me.

[john L]

I agree with you, the gun problem in Mexico, is a Mexico problem; but if there are Americans buying guns in America to sell illegally in Mexico at a huge mark up, that is an American problem. The people that are breaking the existing guns laws, only feed the far left in the frenzy to pass more restrictive laws.

We all know we do not need more gun laws, we only need to make sure laws that are already on the books are enforced. If I can be of assistance to Law Enforcement stopping the bad guys, I gladly will; especially if it helps keep new more restrictive laws from being proposed or even worse, passed.

[kirock7]

I agree with you, the gun problem in Mexico, is a Mexico problem; but if there are Americans buying guns in America to sell illegally in Mexico at a huge mark up, that is an American problem. The people that are breaking the existing guns laws, only feed the far left in the frenzy to pass more restrictive laws.

We all know we do not need more gun laws, we only need to make sure laws that are already on the books are enforced. If I can be of assistance to Law Enforcement stopping the bad guys, I gladly will; especially if it helps keep new more restrictive laws from being proposed or even worse, passed.

I'm with you on this one, john.

[txmatt]

I agree with you, the gun problem in Mexico, is a Mexico problem; but if there are Americans buying guns in America to sell illegally in Mexico at a huge mark up, that is an American problem. The people that are breaking the existing guns laws, only feed the far left in the frenzy to pass more restrictive laws.

We all know we do not need more gun laws, we only need to make sure laws that are already on the books are enforced. If I can be of assistance to Law Enforcement stopping the bad guys, I gladly will; especially if it helps keep new more restrictive laws from being proposed or even worse, passed.

So we should give up our rights in order to keep from losing our rights?

If you want to submit to warrantless searches that's your business but doing so does no one any good whatsoever. You waste the government's time (since you aren't doing any straw purchases, I assume), you waste your time, and you open yourself up for the agents doing the search to happen to find some other violation of the law unrelated to gun smuggling and to prosecute you for that. Don't think for a minute that being cooperative in anyway helps our cause. I think the exact opposite is true since every time they get away with something like this they just push it further the next time. Besides if you are compliant and it doesn't help them find any gun smuggling (big surprise there) then it's a perfect justification in their eyes to ask for more powers and more restrictions on our gun rights. Logic is not needed when an anti is making an argument in favor of tougher gun laws.

Being a gun owner is NOT probable cause for a search or evidence of criminal activity and should not be treated as such!

Oh and the smuggling of guns into Mexico is a Mexican problem as it is their border that needs enforcing. If they want to stop guns from coming into Mexico maybe they should start searching vehicles coming into Mexico or otherwise enforcing their border. Maybe they could build a fence to keep the gun smugglers out. Shows you how seriously they take this "problem." If anything they should be thanking us since the guns being smuggled from the US are only semiauto as opposed to what is coming from their southern boarder.

[boomerang]

Oh and the smuggling of guns into Mexico is a Mexican problem as it is their border that needs enforcing. If they want to stop guns from coming into Mexico maybe they should start searching vehicles coming into Mexico or otherwise enforcing their border. Maybe they could build a fence to keep the gun smugglers out.

The Mexican government doesn't mind the insecure border when their citizens are illegally entering the United States. They don't mind the cash coming back home from Mexican nationals committing crimes in the United States. In fact, they raised a stink when the minuteman project tried to enforce those laws and prevent smuggling of drugs/people/weapons going North.

They also don't do much to catch people in Mexico who are driving around in stolen cars from the United States.

There are even reports of the Mexican government (army or whatever) illegally crossing the border (INVADING THE US) and firing at Americans.

Maybe the answer is to send more guns into Mexico so THE PEOPLE can defend themselves from the corrupt government and the cartels/gangs.