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TxFire wrote:I might could go along with the UTMB if it has a school attached. But I do not know of a hospital that does not have "students" present in some learning capacity. I think it would be a huge stretch to say that the legislative intent of school would include a hopital simply based on the students, interns, and residents presence for learning purposes. I think it would open up a lot of other places that "teach" that also are not schools.

What about Baylor college of medicine in the medical center in houston? I don't know about this one.

Since it is a hospital I wonder if they are required to properly post. Because, whatever else it is, it's primary purpose is as a hospital and not a school. Without the hospital the teaching part wouldn't exist. I refer memory to the Ft. Worth? Zoo. They have class rooms and students that take courses there from what I have heard. So, to spite the fact that it is a zoo. It is city property. They post 30.06 signs on the pretence that it is a school. It isn't. It is a zoo but, I am not going to take the risk and carry there because of the signs. Mainly because I don't give a penny to anyone that doesn't respect CHL. But also because I don't want to get slammed for doing so.

Either way, this hospital/school is rare. And if they don't post it would be hard to argue that it is a school and not a hospital. If it isn't posted I would carry because I don't mind the bull. If I got into a defensive situation I would have to deal with it. The risk is worth it to me. Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.

I think a hospital would have to post a 30-06 notice, given the fact the law specifically addresses hospitals seperately from schools.

A basic tenent of law is to read law to mean what it obviously means... in this case the legislature amended the law to require posting by hospitals... and I can't see where that is unclear... the legislature wants hospitals to post if they don't want you to carry...

The intent of the legislature was not to make things into a "GOTCHA" rather it was to make clear who had to post to prevent carry.

We need to read the law as it is written...

FWIW

Chuck

Roger Howard wrote:

TxFire wrote:I might could go along with the UTMB if it has a school attached. But I do not know of a hospital that does not have "students" present in some learning capacity. I think it would be a huge stretch to say that the legislative intent of school would include a hopital simply based on the students, interns, and residents presence for learning purposes. I think it would open up a lot of other places that "teach" that also are not schools.

What about Baylor college of medicine in the medical center in houston? I don't know about this one.

That is exactly what I was trying to cnvey also CXM. There are a great many out there that either have no clue of the teaching/School aspect of these hopsitals or many others whom would likely see it only as a Hospital even in light of it. So in my opinion, NO 30.06, carry away!

So you do believe that the University of Medical Branch allows concealed handguns??
I would love to hear some other opinions on this. With all good intentions and the desire to know the law...it seems that the word University at the beginning of the hospitals name says it all.
I suppose the University Police would be a good source, but I do not want to create a situation that does not exist. How else can we find out? The policy below appears old and I realize that it is policy and not the law......but for now it is all I could find.


From the University of Texas Medican Branch in Galveston Policies and Procedures online resource:

UTMB HANDBOOK OF OPERATING PROCEDURES
Section 8 Health, Safety, and Security Policies
Subject 8.2 Security Policies
Policy 8.2.4 Possession of Weapons
06/20/96 -Originated

06/03/98 -Reviewed w/changes

-Reviewed w/o changes

University Police -Author



Possession of Weapons

Audience
The information in this document is intended for all faculty, staff, and students of UTMB.



Definition
Premises: a building or a portion of a building. It does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.

Weapon: a handgun, illegal knife, or club.



Policy
Generally, the possession of a firearm anywhere on the UTMB property is strictly forbidden and constitutes a violation of state statute. In addition to any criminal sanctions that may be imposed, employees, faculty, house staff, and students found in violation of this policy are subject to disciplinary action which may include termination.

Those persons licensed by the Texas Department of Public Safety to carry a concealed handgun are prohibited from carrying a handgun on UTMB premises.
The University Police Department must be notified immediately when a person is either observed in possession of a weapon or is suspected of possessing a firearm in violation of this policy.
Exceptions
Licensed peace officers are allowed to carry a weapon in this state, including on UTMB premises, regardless of whether the officer is engaged in the actual discharge of duties while carrying the weapon.
References
Texas Penal Code §§46.01-03; 46.035; 46.15




Jason

shootthesheet wrote:... whatever else it [UTMB] is, it's primary purpose is as a hospital and not a school. Without the hospital the teaching part wouldn't exist....

This is a fascinating discussion.

UTMB began as Galveston Medical College in 1865, later Texas Medical College, and finally UTMB when Ashbel Smith harangued the legislature into making it part of the University of Texas system. It has always been a school.

(All medical schools operate hospitals and clinics.)

There are a few areas of the campus that are arguably not part of the UT system, like the Shriner's hospital. I don't know the details of who owns and operates those entitities.

- Jim

jbirds1210 wrote:So you do believe that the University of Medical Branch allows concealed handguns??

Actually I have no idea what UTMB "allows", but further in you post it would seem that they do not want a CHL to carry. My focus is that I do not feel that UTMB is statutorily off limits via being a "School". Now if they post a 30.06 sign, then yes off limits.

I feel it is a slippery slope to consider places like this to be a "School". If we go there, where do we stop. My place of employement has a Training Division with a classroom. Classes are taught, even to highschool students on few occasions. But our organization is NOT a school.

This yet again points to the true need to fully define with very clear language what a school is per a CHL. Actually my preference would be to remove the "school" restriction all together.

TxFire wrote:
Actually I have no idea what UTMB "allows", but further in you post it would seem that they do not want a CHL to carry. My focus is that I do not feel that UTMB is statutorily off limits via being a "School". Now if they post a 30.06 sign, then yes off limits.

I feel it is a slippery slope to consider places like this to be a "School". If we go there, where do we stop. My place of employement has a Training Division with a classroom. Classes are taught, even to highschool students on few occasions. But our organization is NOT a school.

This yet again points to the true need to fully define with very clear language what a school is per a CHL. Actually my preference would be to remove the "school" restriction all together.

The key to this issue may be in its name. The name of the Hospital clearly indicates that the place is primarily a school, "University of Texas Medical Branch".

http://www.fatrat.com/teaching_hospitals_texas.htm Here is a list of Texas teaching hospitals. While most are listed with "University" in thier name on that site, many do not use that full name in their literature or signs. So how are the common folk to determine if they may carry if the hospital is not posted? I contend still that this is not a location that was in the intent of the law to be statutorily off limits via the "school" prohibition. But that is simply my opinion and I am not a lawyer, DA, LEO, or Legislator so take it for what it is worth. Would like to hear Charles' take on this though.

TxFire wrote:

jbirds1210 wrote:So you do believe that the University of Medical Branch allows concealed handguns??

This yet again points to the true need to fully define with very clear language what a school is per a CHL. Actually my preference would be to remove the "school" restriction all together.

With all the school shooting as of late I feel the need to remove the restriction as well.

TxFire wrote:This yet again points to the true need to fully define with very clear language what a school is per a CHL. Actually my preference would be to remove the "school" restriction all together.

I agree with you 100% there. The campus of many large schools/hospitals are dangerous. The crime report issued by UTMB is enough to convince me of that.

On the issue of being allowed to carry in University hospitals with such things as classrooms, bookstores, and student centers ,I must agree to disagree....I think it is a school and that it is prohibited by law. I might be wrong...I hope I am wrong.
Jason

I am not familiar with UTMB, but it might be more obvious that it is a "University" than others. If that is the case I could go with the "school" prohibition. But I don't like it.

Baylor is a University in Waco, but Balor has a hospital in Ft. Worth--in fact, two of them in Ft. Worth proper.

I was just at the Balor All Saints Hospital in downtown Ft. Worth today (8th Ave) and there is no 30.06 sign, just some sign that states carrying a concealed weapon is illegal and cites some obscure code that I'm not aware of.

Sorry for not paying closer attention but we were in a hurry to get to my wife's diabetes class. She's just been diagnosed.

I didn't carry today, I wanted to make sure of or not of a 30.06 before.

I now know that I can.

Russ

Baylor has many hospitals in the area. The main downtown Dallas location I believe was the only one that ever used the Baylor University Medical Center label. Best I can tell even that location has dropped that full title. The Garland location is not properly posted either. It still has something to the effect of "state law prohibits the carrying of handguns on these premisis" or such.

I have waited to post here again as I wanted to carefully consider this and look at the law.

It is my opinion that regardless of where the hospital is located, if it is a hospital licensed under Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, then it falls under 46.035 (4) and not 46.03 (1).

Even if it is within a 'campus' of a college, unless the hospital is 30.06 posted then carry is not prohibited, I believe.