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Hoppes wrote:I wouldn't think you would do a 10-27 or a 10-29 until you had the driver's license information in your hand. I think a 10-28 is done with the vehicle license number.

Just so you know, these terms are not all precise in definition and are not universal. Some departments use different code numbers.

Now, given that, the normal procedure is to request a 28 and 29 check on the plate. This means that I am asking for the registration information and a stolen check on the car.

After I stop the car and ID the driver, I will then ask for the 27 and 29 checks on him. The 27 returns the driver's license (and CHL if there is one) and the 29 checks if he is wanted on a warrant or any suspicious warnings.

In actuality, many times, the officer does not ask for the 29, it is just run automatically in each case. Many dispatchers will also try to do a quick check on the registered owner to get a jump on the 27 the officer is likely to be requesting. Really good dispatchers will check local files for the plate and see who else has been stopped in the car to run. Cops with computers in the car may or may not have done various levels of research before making the stop. The extra checks are th eonly way the officer could know about a CHL before actually stopping the car.

seamusTX wrote: My best guess is that I would have rolled the window down and put my hands out, palms open, when I saw weapons. Then, if they wanted me out, they could open the door.

I'm kind of old for contortions.

- Jim

Jim,

Supposedly, the guy already had his window down but his door was locked. According to the story, the officers told the guy to keep his hands in plain sight at all times and get out of the car. So I started thinking of a few scenarios. If he put his hands down to unlock the door, it would have been a very intense action for him and the LEOs.

In the mind of the LEOs, they are presumed to be thinking, "Man with gun. He's going for it. I can't see his hand(s)." The guy in the car is thinking, "Am I going to be shot to death for something I don't even know about? Why are they attacking me with all these weapons pointed at me in all directions?"

Both sides are probably pumped up with adrenaline. Possible tunnel vision and loss of hearing; hard to think and react right. One false move and an innocent man gets shot and likely killed. If one LEO fired in reaction to what he or she thought was a suspicious hand movement, I'll bet it is safe to say the majority of the remaining LEOs present would have fired too. That has been shown in many cases, but there are some exceptions to that.

Now if that door was unlocked, it should have been easier for the guy to reach his hand through the open window in plain sight and open the handle from the outside. Hard to say though when you aren't witness to these incidents. I am not a contortionist either. I might still be sitting in that car with my hands in plain view.

As for LEOs lying to subjects, this is outright unethical in my opinion. I know you aren't suggesting that a LEO lie to a subject, but it is reality. Yet it is trickery to me. I think LEO ethics might be the subject for a different forum, but consider the two most widely used ethics theories:

1. Kantian - In Kant's theory, judgements are essentially propositional cognitions, based upon the fact that humans, like all animals, are basically propositional. A Kantian test for ethics is simple enough. Ask your self whether something is ehtical: Would I want someone to do this to me?

2. Utilititarian - This theory could be considered normative. Humans search for value in something routine. This theory is based upon the premise that the morality of an act should be judged soley on the results. This theory is supposed to lead one to understand if an act is good for the whole society or not. Is it going to be good for the society? I shy away from this line of thinking and default to Kant's Theory because Utilitarianism sounds like socialism to me.

In my personal life, I have never found that lying is acceptable by either Kantian or Utilitarian tests. I just don't believe there is any justice or morality in a lie. I understand what you are saying though. I've heard cops lie to people when I knew it was a lie. the trouble with our society is that the "lie" is becoming normative and to me, that is not good. I'll end this subject here though, because I think it is a subject for a different forum. Lies are told when the truth is to hard to accept.

I've got to get off this PC and get busy. I Have a ton of things to do.

Hoppes

srothstein wrote:
Just so you know, these terms are not all precise in definition and are not universal. Some departments use different code numbers.

Agreed. They are just APCO 10 Codes and it is probably even wise for most Police Departments to deviate from using the standard codes to stay ahead of the BG. I don't know how many times I've heard the BG left before the LEO got there because the BG had a scanner or heads up from someone who did.

I am for two modes of official communication - one for standard communication that would comply with the Communications Act of 1934 as amended, and one for tactical that is secure and scrambled.

Hoppes

Hoppes wrote:As for LEOs lying to subjects, this is outright unethical in my opinion. I know you aren't suggesting that a LEO lie to a subject, but it is reality. Yet it is trickery to me.

LEOs do lie to suspects. It is a recognized, approved practice.

Take a drug or prostitution sting. The officer is pretending to be a drug buyer, prostitute, or potential prostitute's customer.

Or, when the police have multiple suspects in custody, they separate them and tell each one that their buddy is talking and this is their last chance to make a deal.

I'm not educated to deal with the philosophical implications.

- Jim

I can't count the number of times I have told an individual that my radio mike was a fingerprint scanner and if he could nto produce his license or name and birthdate honestly, and the fingerprint scan came back with anything, he would go down for a long time. All kinds of guys would admit they have blue warrants or whatever. Of course, all of them were not all that intelligent...