Another CHL incident

[baraco01]

And this particular restaurant's lay out is soooo messed up. Since the floor area is small, they put a lot of booth and tables where you cannot sit comfortably specially when people are passing by your booth/table. As voice of reason has said, I, too would not give up my gun to an off duty firefighter.... who knows, he could be one of the thugs. Also a knife or a fork can do a lot of damage.... I would not want to be stabbed w/ a fork on my throat.
Since I don't like the food that much, the incident gave me an excuse to take my wife there First, that part of El Paso is not something to like. Second, the place is crowded -- crowded w/ booths and tables and crowded w/ customers.

[G.A. Heath]

What is legal, and what affects someone's perception are not always one and the same. If the licensee did not attempt to deescalate the situation or attempt to flee he was still legal to use deadly force, but the firefighter could easily have mistaken him for the aggressor if he didn't attempt one or both of those actions. This does however motivate the firefighter to take action to defend himself. Lets look at the situation a little differently.

Your sitting at a table eating in this establishment. You notice people arguing and suddenly someone pulls a gun and shoots one of the others. You have precisely one active shooter, you don't really know if they are the good guy or the bad guy but they are potentially a threat to you and/or your family. What do you do? Think about this scenario from the view point of being armed (CHL or LEO) and from the viewpoint of being unarmed. Thinking about your anticipated reaction to that scenario is why attempting to deescalate and/or flee is still important even though there is no legal requirement to do so. We are still in the "Stay alive" mode here and not even thinking about staying out of jail. Deploying your weapon in any situation can potentially get you attacked (and even shot) by other good guys trying to stop a perceived threat.

[HD76]

What is legal, and what affects someone's perception are not always one and the same. If the licensee did not attempt to deescalate the situation or attempt to flee he was still legal to use deadly force, but the firefighter could easily have mistaken him for the aggressor if he didn't attempt one or both of those actions. This does however motivate the firefighter to take action to defend himself. Lets look at the situation a little differently.

Your sitting at a table eating in this establishment. You notice people arguing and suddenly someone pulls a gun and shoots one of the others. You have precisely one active shooter, you don't really know if they are the good guy or the bad guy but they are potentially a threat to you and/or your family. What do you do? Think about this scenario from the view point of being armed (CHL or LEO) and from the viewpoint of being unarmed. Thinking about your anticipated reaction to that scenario is why attempting to deescalate and/or flee is still important even though there is no legal requirement to do so. We are still in the "Stay alive" mode here and not even thinking about staying out of jail. Deploying your weapon in any situation can potentially get you attacked (and even shot) by other good guys trying to stop a perceived threat.

So is this part of the reason that some trainers recommend yelling when confronted? I am thinking of stuff like they had on PDTV when it was on. Something as simple as "STOP! STOP! STOP!" You are clearly letting the attacker not to approach you, I would also think it would serve to notify bystanders that you are the one being attacked. Even if you are the one with the gun, and the other guy(s) are unarmed or armed with a lesser weapon, it would seem to clearly identify who the aggressor is.

Of course I have no first hand knowledge, it just "seems" reasonable to me. However practicing it, seems like it would be diffacult. I can't see yelling like that at the local gun range. You would think people would keep running over to see what the problem was.

[seamusTX]

So is this part of the reason that some trainers recommend yelling when confronted? I am thinking of stuff like they had on PDTV when it was on. Something as simple as "STOP! STOP! STOP!" You are clearly letting the attacker not to approach you, ...

The last time that I thought I was a robbery target, a man approached me at a walk-up ATM after I had inserted my card. I don't know where he had been before that, but he clearly timed his approach. (I hate using walk-up ATMs, but sometimes it is necessary.)

I literally acted like a lunatic. I waved my arms in his direction and yelled "Get out of here!" repeatedly. I was troubled by how long it took him to get the message, but he did. Crooks do not like attention.

That said, this incident sounds like a testosterone-fueled and gang-linked attack that would not have been de-escalated by methods that often work with single criminal attackers who want to get money or goods and get away. These gang members literally are urban terrorists. They want to establish their dominance and make sure that as many people as possible know it.

- Jim

[G.A. Heath]

So is this part of the reason that some trainers recommend yelling when confronted? I am thinking of stuff like they had on PDTV when it was on. Something as simple as "STOP! STOP! STOP!" You are clearly letting the attacker not to approach you, I would also think it would serve to notify bystanders that you are the one being attacked. Even if you are the one with the gun, and the other guy(s) are unarmed or armed with a lesser weapon, it would seem to clearly identify who the aggressor is.

That, and it increases the number of witnesses to the event. I very recently had a chance to get some training that has greatly influenced my thinking, the most interesting thing about the opportunity I got is that we never once fired a weapon. The training was only about interacting with other participants, and blue guns were used for the entire class.

[esxmarkc]

Check out the 1st comment at the bottom of this article:

http://www.kvia.com/news/24870180/detail.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Wonder how credible that one is. If so that FF needs some retraining and he's lucky he isn't on a slab.

it happend too fast! the firefighter almost got us all shot when he tackled the shooter the gun fell n the other guys could have got it and shot us too!

[MojoTexas]

I wasn't there, and we're all going by very limited information from sketchy reports...but if it were me, I would've been calling 911 the second they started shaking people down. If the gangsters then started threatening me, I would've produced my firearm while still trying to get the cops there ASAP. I wouldn't have fired unless I *REALLY* felt threatened, like them lunging at me with a knife or something.

The article doesn't mention what kind of knife was being used....was it a sharp "combat" knife, or was it a steak knife, or was it a plastic butter knife like you get in a fast food restaurant? In other words, how big of a threat was it?

Yes, we're allowed by law to "stand our ground", but that still doesn't mean that shooting someone should be our first response. By picking up a cell phone and loudly announcing that we're calling 911, we're basically telling the bad guys that they need to either leave the scene ASAP or else try and stop me from dialing three digits and hitting "send" on my phone. Even if they manage to make me hang up, 911 always sends an officer to investigate.

If, while I'm on the phone with the 911 dispatcher, one of the four men tries to attack me, I can tell the 911 dispatcher that I am a CHL holder and legally armed and that I'm prepared to legally defend myself *BEFORE* pulling the trigger. This tells my fellow restaurant patrons (including the off-duty fire fighter) the situation, and gives yet another verbal warning to the punks that they're about to get ventilated if they don't cease and desist.

My reaction would've been a different story had the bad guy been threatening the patrons with a gun. I would've probably laughed at the fork, however.

Just my $2e-02.

MojoTexas

[Cobra Medic]

Your sitting at a table eating in this establishment. You notice people arguing and suddenly someone pulls a gun and shoots one of the others. You have precisely one active shooter, you don't really know if they are the good guy or the bad guy but they are potentially a threat to you and/or your family. What do you do?

That depends. Do I have a batman license or a CHL?

[seamusTX]

The article doesn't mention what kind of knife was being used....was it a sharp "combat" knife, or was it a steak knife, or was it a plastic butter knife like you get in a fast food restaurant? In other words, how big of a threat was it?

Not to quibble too much, but a 1-inch steel knife is more than enough to kill an adult human. The carotid artery is pretty close to the surface, and any arterial nick is life-threatening unless treated promptly and properly.

- Jim

[Cobra Medic]

The article doesn't mention what kind of knife was being used....was it a sharp "combat" knife, or was it a steak knife, or was it a plastic butter knife like you get in a fast food restaurant? In other words, how big of a threat was it?

Not to quibble too much, but a 1-inch steel knife is more than enough to kill an adult human. The carotid artery is pretty close to the surface, and any arterial nick is life-threatening unless treated promptly and properly.

+1

I know what I can do with a scalpel so I consider any blade a serious threat. I also can articulate why.

[CEOofEVIL]

Well,

I'm a new poster to this forum, but have been reading it since I applied for and received my CHL about year ago. I'm an El Paso resident, and actually live in the Northeast, and I'm very familiar with this part of town having grown up in it. I want to say I'm disturbed by this event, but unfortunately it's just one of the many bad things that seem to happen in this town. I know the restaurant in question, though haven't eaten in it, though I do recall eating at that location when it was Grandy's long ago. As someone mentioned before, it is a pretty confusing layout, so I can only imagine how things may have unfolded in there.

As much as I want to jump in and try to defend the CHL'er in this case, We'll really just have to wait and see what an investigation turns up - this isn't to say that I think he's guilty of anything however. The facts seem to really be jumbled and confusing at this point to say the least. Regarding an comment someone made about the Northeast part of town not being "something to like": The Northeast is not a bad part of town. Years ago the portion of land known as "The Devils Triangle" was VERY bad, and still isn't exactly a place any sane person would want to take a walk - but the rest of this part of town is just like any other in town. That is to say that it's not pre-disposed to any more or less violent crime or gang activity than the other "nice" parts of the city. The NE is full of Active Duty Military, Old Retired folks, and Families young and old just living out their days. I live close by Veterans park, and there are ton's of people either walking/running, having picnics, playing sports or just plain ole' having fun on a daily basis. Heck, on my way to work everyday I see a group of Military Vets that meet and chat with each other every morning at this part. The Northeast is a pretty big place, and as you can tell what I'm describing here is one of the nicer (not what you would call a "rich" area, if you will) places around. Most of the homes are older, and like most neighbor hoods folks tend to either keep up with their yards/homes, or not. Some streets have homes with nicely groomed houses, and homes that look more run down. Heck, I myself can't even get a blade of green grass to grow on my front lawn! This should show as an indicator or my neighborhood, however. Lots of sweet old folk's and families live around me.

At any rate, I'm only writing this to give perspective about parts of town -in any city - being less than nice. The area around Gallego's is actually not bad at all - There are plenty of shops and only moments away, and even a College (Western Technical College). One of the nicest divisions in the Northeast, Castner Heights, is within a mile of the shooting sight. Homes here are very well kept, has a good (and brightly colored) elementary school, and is a very sought after neighborhood to live in.

To contrast this however, also within I'd say two miles, is Irvin High School, which has some rough areas around if. There is a mostly abandoned Shopping Center named Northpark Mall close by, which is quite large and was thriving in days gone by, but now only has a handful of businesses in it. Because of this, the majority of the place is VERY run down, with boarded up or broken windows and the like. I remember driving by this place at night on the way back home with my then fiance, and having to call the cops as a group of kids were smashing in windows on an abandoned store front. Just goes to show you, just like any parts of virtually any town, there are pockets of good and bad. I can't say I'm shocked to that something happened in this area, but it certainly stinks.

Apologies for the long winded first post . I hope that everything turns out OK in this situation, and hopefully the CHL'er was not acting in any questionable manner, though if he was it'll be a damn shame.

[MojoTexas]

The article doesn't mention what kind of knife was being used....was it a sharp "combat" knife, or was it a steak knife, or was it a plastic butter knife like you get in a fast food restaurant? In other words, how big of a threat was it?

Not to quibble too much, but a 1-inch steel knife is more than enough to kill an adult human. The carotid artery is pretty close to the surface, and any arterial nick is life-threatening unless treated promptly and properly.

Oh I know, and I agree...but a lot would still depend on what kind of knife it was, and how willing (and able) the BG was at using the knife. In the past I've had some martial arts and self-defense training (Kenpo karate, a little ju-jitsu), and I'm also not a little guy at 6'6" and 280 lbs. I am not a macho "tough guy" by any stretch of the imagination, but I have had some training as well as perhaps an advantage of size to call upon that would help me prevent my neck from being cut with a 1" knife by a smaller opponent. That doesn't mean I *WANT* to get into a fight unarmed against a knife-wielding bad guy...it just means that I'm not as worried about it as I might have been without having been trained to handle a situation like that.

My point is that I wouldn't pull a gun and just shoot someone without first trying to call 911 or de-escalate the situation. If I really felt threatened or that my life was in jeopardy, yes I would shoot to protect myself or my loved ones. I just wouldn't shoot someone in the face because some punk picked up a blunt-tip restaurant steak knife and threatened me with it from across the room, regardless of what the Tueller Drill may say.

Unfortunately without knowing more about what happened, it's difficult to judge the situation. We don't know the age or situation of the legally-armed CHL holder who shot the BG. If he was a 68-year-old retired gentleman, then his situation would be entirely different than mine, and perhaps he did the right thing under the circumstances.

[seamusTX]

Oh I know, and I agree...but a lot would still depend on what kind of knife it was, and how willing (and able) the BG was at using the knife.

They shank each other in prison with knives made from improvised scraps of metal. Then they get paroled.

- Jim

[esxmarkc]

The article doesn't mention what kind of knife was being used....was it a sharp "combat" knife, or was it a steak knife, or was it a plastic butter knife like you get in a fast food restaurant? In other words, how big of a threat was it?

If it was a plastic spork all bets are off. That nightmare scenario is EXACTLY the reason I carry extra mags.

[MojoTexas]

The article doesn't mention what kind of knife was being used....was it a sharp "combat" knife, or was it a steak knife, or was it a plastic butter knife like you get in a fast food restaurant? In other words, how big of a threat was it?

If it was a plastic spork all bets are off. That nightmare scenario is EXACTLY the reason I carry extra mags.