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SkydiverRick wrote:

marksiwel wrote:I'm speaking of the end of the War. Russia could have beaten Germany without any US help, but they would have been running mainland Europe. As unpopular as these seems, the USA role in WW2 alittle overblown, compared to the almost nonexistent recongization of Russia's influence and help to defeat the Germans. Remember they Captured Berlin not US.

Not to be argumentative but.....
I was speaking to what was, not to what might of been. We freed France from Germany not Russia. Do you think D-Day was overblown? How about when we convinced the Japanese to surrender?

I think you chaps are at cross purposes here. Seems to me that marksiwel's point is that Germany was going down regardless. If the UK and USA hadn't done it, Russia would have (and, to a large extent, did). Both Churchill and Patton understood this, and the Soviet threat, but sadly Roosevelt sold Poland and much of Europe to Stalin, in exchange for getting the UN established.

Anyway, while I hold no brief for the French, didn't they help the US get its independence in the first place?

SkydiverRick wrote:

marksiwel wrote:I'm speaking of the end of the War. Russia could have beaten Germany without any US help, but they would have been running mainland Europe. As unpopular as these seems, the USA role in WW2 alittle overblown, compared to the almost nonexistent recongization of Russia's influence and help to defeat the Germans. Remember they Captured Berlin not US.

Not to be argumentative but.....
I was speaking to what was, not to what might of been. We freed France from Germany not Russia. Do you think D-Day was overblown? How about when we convinced the Japanese to surrender?

D-Day vs Stalingard
D-Day 1-2 thousand deaths
Stalingrad 500,000 Thousand dead and thats a low number according to some sources

Also, the Russians were already getting involved in fighting the Japanese at the end of the war.

Regardless.
You think "France" owes us for what they thought was an unjust war? They disagreed with our reasons for going to war, yes they arent the best Ally but there are still a major military force in Europe and we treated them, poorly.

i could write a paper, but let me just post some links of many of America's failing with other nations including our Allies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_po ... nistration" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_po ... inal_Court" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also remember when France helped us stand up to a Foreign Power that was bullying us? maybe it was before your time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France_in_ ... ionary_War" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

chartreuse wrote:

SkydiverRick wrote:

marksiwel wrote:I'm speaking of the end of the War. Russia could have beaten Germany without any US help, but they would have been running mainland Europe. As unpopular as these seems, the USA role in WW2 alittle overblown, compared to the almost nonexistent recongization of Russia's influence and help to defeat the Germans. Remember they Captured Berlin not US.

Not to be argumentative but.....
I was speaking to what was, not to what might of been. We freed France from Germany not Russia. Do you think D-Day was overblown? How about when we convinced the Japanese to surrender?

I think you chaps are at cross purposes here. Seems to me that marksiwel's point is that Germany was going down regardless. If the UK and USA hadn't done it, Russia would have (and, to a large extent, did). Both Churchill and Patton understood this, and the Soviet threat, but sadly Roosevelt sold Poland and much of Europe to Stalin, in exchange for getting the UN established.

Anyway, while I hold no brief for the French, didn't they help the US get its independence in the first place?

You got it before I got it, darn you!

marksiwel wrote:

SkydiverRick wrote:

marksiwel wrote:I'm speaking of the end of the War. Russia could have beaten Germany without any US help, but they would have been running mainland Europe. As unpopular as these seems, the USA role in WW2 alittle overblown, compared to the almost nonexistent recongization of Russia's influence and help to defeat the Germans. Remember they Captured Berlin not US.

Not to be argumentative but.....
I was speaking to what was, not to what might of been. We freed France from Germany not Russia. Do you think D-Day was overblown? How about when we convinced the Japanese to surrender?

D-Day vs Stalingard
D-Day 1-2 thousand deaths
Stalingrad 500,000 Thousand dead and thats a low number according to some sources

Also, the Russians were already getting involved in fighting the Japanese at the end of the war.

Regardless.
You think "France" owes us for what they thought was an unjust war? They disagreed with our reasons for going to war, yes they arent the best Ally but there are still a major military force in Europe and we treated them, poorly.

i could write a paper, but let me just post some links of many of America's failing with other nations including our Allies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_po ... nistration" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_po ... inal_Court" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also remember when France helped us stand up to a Foreign Power that was bullying us? maybe it was before your time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France_in_ ... ionary_War" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

406,000 US servicemen is not inconsequential, regardless of how many Russians died. I just can't get behind the blame America first crowd, sorry.

Wikipedia is not a reliable source.

SkydiverRick wrote:Wikipedia is not a reliable source.

*sigh*
What is?

Lets just go off basic history, France helped us lay a whipping on Britain, we in turn influenced the French Revolution. Throw in the Louisiana Land Purchase which was what a million square miles give or take? The French being our Ally in World War 1 and 2, and in world war 2 the French Resistance saving the lives of many Americans. The French helped us Fight Communist uprising across the globe. Were Great Cold War Allies, let us put nukes in their backyard.

I think what the US doesnt like is that France is still a very REAL Power Player in World Events. So they drum up this Anti-French nonsense from time to time, just like the French drum up Anti-American nonsense to support their goals.

France has made mistakes as well, as many or more than the US (Look at the crap the pulled in the Congo and trying to reclaim Middle Eastern and African Colonies)

My point was, the US Government (which is now run By OBAMA and His pals (Tell me they havent made mistakes)) has made mistakes and to admit that and apologize for it, is not a big deal and shouldnt be treated as some sort of traitorous act

marksiwel wrote:

SkydiverRick wrote:Wikipedia is not a reliable source.

*sigh*
What is?

Lets just go off basic history, France helped us lay a whipping on Britain, we in turn influenced the French Revolution. Throw in the Louisiana Land Purchase which was what a million square miles give or take? The French being our Ally in World War 1 and 2, and in world war 2 the French Resistance saving the lives of many Americans. The French helped us Fight Communist uprising across the globe. Were Great Cold War Allies, let us put nukes in their backyard.

I think what the US doesnt like is that France is still a very REAL Power Player in World Events. So they drum up this Anti-French nonsense from time to time, just like the French drum up Anti-American nonsense to support their goals.

France has made mistakes as well, as many or more than the US (Look at the crap the pulled in the Congo and trying to reclaim Middle Eastern and African Colonies)

My point was, the US Government (which is now run By OBAMA and His pals (Tell me they havent made mistakes)) has made mistakes and to admit that and apologize for it, is not a big deal and shouldnt be treated as some sort of traitorous act

Hasn't obama already done the apology tour? I consider that one of his mistakes.
BTW - I have no love for the French, but I haven't been anti-french at all in this post. I am very pro-American though.

So whats your problem with Obama Apologizing? Do you not believe mistakes have been made or that we shouldn't Man up and admit to them?

marksiwel wrote:So whats your problem with Obama Apologizing? Do you not believe mistakes have been made or that we shouldn't Man up and admit to them?

Where should we start? Perhaps we can apologize for being the most generous country in the world? Or maybe we should apologize for giving almost every other country on this planet foreign aid. We should definitely apologize for being the first ones to show up with money, food water and medical supplies after a natural disaster. Should we should apologize to Grenada? Sorry, like I said, I'm not into bashing the USA.

marksiwel wrote: Regardless.
You think "France" owes us for what they thought was an unjust war? They disagreed with our reasons for going to war, yes they arent the best Ally but there are still a major military force in Europe and we treated them, poorly.

They didn't think it was unjust. They were just peeved we were cutting into their profit margin. They were quite happy buying and selling oil/weapons/etc from Saddam until we came along and ruined it for them.

SkydiverRick wrote:

marksiwel wrote:

SkydiverRick wrote:Wikipedia is not a reliable source.

*sigh*
What is?

Are you seriously trying to pass Wikipedia off as a reliable source? I can get on there right now an add any "facts" that I'd like. I'd trust CNN first.

SkydiverRick wrote:

SkydiverRick wrote:

marksiwel wrote:

SkydiverRick wrote:Wikipedia is not a reliable source.

*sigh*
What is?

Are you seriously trying to pass Wikipedia off as a reliable source? I can get on there right now an add any "facts" that I'd like. I'd trust CNN first.

Like I said, tell me a Source that you trust.
Care to point out anything in the Wiki articles that are False?
I think you are just trying to change the subject because you know I'm right.

marksiwel wrote: Are you seriously trying to pass Wikipedia off as a reliable source? I can get on there right now an add any "facts" that I'd like. I'd trust CNN first.

Like I said, tell me a Source that you trust.
Care to point out anything in the Wiki articles that are False?
I think you are just trying to change the subject because you know I'm right.[/quote]

Wikipedia is not a reliable source as it is input from jsut about anyone that wants to register and post information. As you mentioned, there are many out there that aren't reliable, so you must figure out for yourself who/what gives you information you feel is the most accurate, then double and triple sheck that agaisnt other wources. Just be careful not to get caught in the trap of the same AP article being posted at different places.

Keith B wrote:
Wikipedia is not a reliable source as it is input from jsut about anyone that wants to register and post information. As you mentioned, there are many out there that aren't reliable, so you must figure out for yourself who/what gives you information you feel is the most accurate, then double and triple sheck that agaisnt other wources. Just be careful not to get caught in the trap of the same AP article being posted at different places.

Wikipedia is such an unreliable source that many universities such as the one that I'm attending specifically do not allow Wikipedia to be used as a resource for research papers.

T.

Would I right a term paper based on a wiki article, no. But the Wiki articles I posted pointed to specific things I was referencing.
Unless you want me to grab History text books and scan them into the Computer and then we can read hundreds of pages together. But wait, http://blogs.newsobserver.com/campusnot ... book-wrong" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Text Books can be wrong too! Oh no!
Sky Diver Rick also said he wouldn't accept links from CNN, if you think CNN is too biased, I would also say you shouldnt accept links from Fox News, MSNBC, or AP.
So we cant take Text books or Major news Papers or Wikipedia articles., well what else have we got then? How about Self Run Websites? Oh wait, anyone could just write anything right?

So, I guess we will just have to accept badly written text books, Wikipedia articles and news organizations, and point out errors as we see them instead of sending out blanket statements saying X,Y or Z, is wrong. That is unless you havent been doing this your whole life and just been accepting everything you read as true, if so I highly suggest you sign up for the New York Times, you're the kind of Reader they are looking for

Moving on...

Anyone care to prove that anything I said is false? Anyone? I'll even let you quote from Wikipedia