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That pretty much sums it up.speedsix wrote:...they did what you say...and they are what you say...he provided them a pawn for their game...
Instead of posting the entire PDF (which had nothing about what Zimmermand did on the first page), how about you be a little more specific on what rule or agreement he broke? He didn't choose to get physically involved. From everything reported, he watched from afar, and was confronted by Martin, who then punched him in the nose. Are you asserting he should have simply submitted, or are you pretending that watching and reporting is "physcially involved"?speedsix wrote:Oldgringo wrote:Back to Square One: A CHL is not a Batman license.
Zimmerman, bless his well intentioned heart, had no business leaving his vehicle after he called in. Now that y'all have seen this incident start to unfurl; no mommy or daddy bailouts, what would y'all do. eh?
Edit:
Would you or I have even been out there doing what Zimmerman, bless his heart, was doing to start with?
...much agreed, Oldgringo!!! most in this discussion have confused Z's right to defend himself against M's attack, which will be decided in court(if it ever gets that far) with his decision to go past what any citizen should do in the first place...call in something suspicious and go your way...he knew better than to do what he did in the first place...the first page of the Sanford NW Guide Getting Involved with NW section makes it clear...but he wanted to exert himself...I guess he got what he wanted...altogether different from the right of a girl to be out late on the street or a person just going about his normal business...Z was playing police...betcha he's had enough now!!!
http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/ ... ndbook.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"...follow up on your leads. What you will
not do is get physically involved with
any activity you report or
apprehension of any suspicious
persons. This is the job of the law
enforcement agency." ... even a fifth grader would understand that...
I couldn't disagree more, and what you're saying his certainly not what he has claimed.speedsix wrote:...AFTER what NW captains are trained to do...call it in...I don't believe anyone here has faulted his doing what any citizen is encouraged to do...drop the dime...make the call...then stay out of the way...
...part of one's involvement in neighborhood watch programs is agreeing to act or not within their guidelines...same as affiliating yourself with ANY organization...if you're gonna play...play by the rules of the team...and he didn't...that's why we're talking about it today...he didn't do what a neighborhood watch (Captain, no less) was supposed to do...follow the guidelines and report ONLY...
What would ScooterSissy have done as a volunteer Neighborhood Watch person...if given the opportunity to go back in time and trade places with Z?ScooterSissy wrote:I couldn't disagree more, and what you're saying his certainly not what he has claimed.speedsix wrote:...AFTER what NW captains are trained to do...call it in...I don't believe anyone here has faulted his doing what any citizen is encouraged to do...drop the dime...make the call...then stay out of the way...
...part of one's involvement in neighborhood watch programs is agreeing to act or not within their guidelines...same as affiliating yourself with ANY organization...if you're gonna play...play by the rules of the team...and he didn't...that's why we're talking about it today...he didn't do what a neighborhood watch (Captain, no less) was supposed to do...follow the guidelines and report ONLY...
His claim is that he was on the phone, reporting the information from a distance (making the call, reporting, staying out of the way), until he was asked to stop following. He complied and got jumped. The gude you provided said nothing about staying in a car. He reported what he saw, and tried to be a good witness.
I can't honestly say I would have done anything different, unless I had prescient knowledge of the outcome. He didn't.Oldgringo wrote:What would ScooterSissy have done as a volunteer Neighborhood Watch person...if given the opportunity to go back in time and trade places with Z?ScooterSissy wrote:I couldn't disagree more, and what you're saying his certainly not what he has claimed.speedsix wrote:...AFTER what NW captains are trained to do...call it in...I don't believe anyone here has faulted his doing what any citizen is encouraged to do...drop the dime...make the call...then stay out of the way...
...part of one's involvement in neighborhood watch programs is agreeing to act or not within their guidelines...same as affiliating yourself with ANY organization...if you're gonna play...play by the rules of the team...and he didn't...that's why we're talking about it today...he didn't do what a neighborhood watch (Captain, no less) was supposed to do...follow the guidelines and report ONLY...
His claim is that he was on the phone, reporting the information from a distance (making the call, reporting, staying out of the way), until he was asked to stop following. He complied and got jumped. The gude you provided said nothing about staying in a car. He reported what he saw, and tried to be a good witness.
ScooterSissy wrote:
What would ScooterSissy have done as a volunteer Neighborhood Watch person...if given the opportunity to go back in time and trade places with Z?
"...might get out of my car..."?ScooterSissy answered:
I can't honestly say I would have done anything different, unless I had prescient knowledge of the outcome. He didn't.
If I saw someone suspicous in my neighborhood, and the only way to follow them was on foot, I very well might get out of my car and follow them to see where they are going.
I know what I would have done. I would have remained there in my easy chair recliner as I looked out the window and observed the person walking down the street looking suspicious and picked up the phone and called the non-emergency number to the police/sheriffs dept. and minded my own business after that unless that particular person came rapping upon my door. If he had done that and not been out trying to be the neighborhood watch man, he would be in his recliner now posting on some forum and not be where he is now, which is behind bars.Oldgringo wrote: What would ScooterSissy have done as a volunteer Neighborhood Watch person...if given the opportunity to go back in time and trade places with Z?
ScooterSissy wrote:Instead of posting the entire PDF (which had nothing about what Zimmermand did on the first page), how about you be a little more specific on what rule or agreement he broke? He didn't choose to get physically involved. From everything reported, he watched from afar, and was confronted by Martin, who then punched him in the nose. Are you asserting he should have simply submitted, or are you pretending that watching and reporting is "physcially involved"?speedsix wrote:Oldgringo wrote:Back to Square One: A CHL is not a Batman license.
Zimmerman, bless his well intentioned heart, had no business leaving his vehicle after he called in. Now that y'all have seen this incident start to unfurl; no mommy or daddy bailouts, what would y'all do. eh?
Edit:
Would you or I have even been out there doing what Zimmerman, bless his heart, was doing to start with?
...much agreed, Oldgringo!!! most in this discussion have confused Z's right to defend himself against M's attack, which will be decided in court(if it ever gets that far) with his decision to go past what any citizen should do in the first place...call in something suspicious and go your way...he knew better than to do what he did in the first place...the first page of the Sanford NW Guide Getting Involved with NW section makes it clear...but he wanted to exert himself...I guess he got what he wanted...altogether different from the right of a girl to be out late on the street or a person just going about his normal business...Z was playing police...betcha he's had enough now!!!
http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/ ... ndbook.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"...follow up on your leads. What you will
not do is get physically involved with
any activity you report or
apprehension of any suspicious
persons. This is the job of the law
enforcement agency." ... even a fifth grader would understand that...
The fact is that he had as much "business" following and reporting a suspicious character as Martin had being there.
Frankly, I find it preposterous that folks are claiming he had no "business" do this or that, he did. It's funny, some seem to only support those particular freedoms they want to exercise themselves.
ScooterSissy wrote:I couldn't disagree more, and what you're saying his certainly not what he has claimed.speedsix wrote:...AFTER what NW captains are trained to do...call it in...I don't believe anyone here has faulted his doing what any citizen is encouraged to do...drop the dime...make the call...then stay out of the way...
...part of one's involvement in neighborhood watch programs is agreeing to act or not within their guidelines...same as affiliating yourself with ANY organization...if you're gonna play...play by the rules of the team...and he didn't...that's why we're talking about it today...he didn't do what a neighborhood watch (Captain, no less) was supposed to do...follow the guidelines and report ONLY...
His claim is that he was on the phone, reporting the information from a distance (making the call, reporting, staying out of the way), until he was asked to stop following. He complied and got jumped. The gude you provided said nothing about staying in a car. He reported what he saw, and tried to be a good witness.
No, that's not "physically invovled". He didn't get physical with anyone. He remained at a distance, so far away that he lost sight of the suspect.speedsix wrote:ScooterSissy wrote:I couldn't disagree more, and what you're saying his certainly not what he has claimed.speedsix wrote:...AFTER what NW captains are trained to do...call it in...I don't believe anyone here has faulted his doing what any citizen is encouraged to do...drop the dime...make the call...then stay out of the way...
...part of one's involvement in neighborhood watch programs is agreeing to act or not within their guidelines...same as affiliating yourself with ANY organization...if you're gonna play...play by the rules of the team...and he didn't...that's why we're talking about it today...he didn't do what a neighborhood watch (Captain, no less) was supposed to do...follow the guidelines and report ONLY...
His claim is that he was on the phone, reporting the information from a distance (making the call, reporting, staying out of the way), until he was asked to stop following. He complied and got jumped. The gude you provided said nothing about staying in a car. He reported what he saw, and tried to be a good witness.
...you're probably right---(that you couldn't disagree more)...but Z's own account is that he made the call, parked the car, got out, followed the suspect, lost sight of him, kept going looking for him,was told not to follow, and got jumped on the way back to his car...on the audio he was running and out of breath...he PUT HIMSELF in danger and escalated the situation to the point that the fight and a killing took place...but you won't admit that all of that is "getting physically involved"...
...had he made the call and not played the super sleuth by following and running after anyone (physically involved to MOST of us), he'd have been safe in his car and nobody would have become upset and jumped him...
..."a good witness" observes and reports...doesn't follow or run after a suspect...any Mama can explain the difference...
Who says a good witness "doesn't follow"? Is that a SpeeSix special rule.speedsix wrote:..."a good witness" observes and reports...doesn't follow or run after a suspect...any Mama can explain the difference...
ScooterSissy wrote:No, that's not "physically invovled". He didn't get physical with anyone. He remained at a distance, so far away that he lost sight of the suspect.speedsix wrote:ScooterSissy wrote:I couldn't disagree more, and what you're saying his certainly not what he has claimed.speedsix wrote:...AFTER what NW captains are trained to do...call it in...I don't believe anyone here has faulted his doing what any citizen is encouraged to do...drop the dime...make the call...then stay out of the way...
...part of one's involvement in neighborhood watch programs is agreeing to act or not within their guidelines...same as affiliating yourself with ANY organization...if you're gonna play...play by the rules of the team...and he didn't...that's why we're talking about it today...he didn't do what a neighborhood watch (Captain, no less) was supposed to do...follow the guidelines and report ONLY...
His claim is that he was on the phone, reporting the information from a distance (making the call, reporting, staying out of the way), until he was asked to stop following. He complied and got jumped. The gude you provided said nothing about staying in a car. He reported what he saw, and tried to be a good witness.
...you're probably right---(that you couldn't disagree more)...but Z's own account is that he made the call, parked the car, got out, followed the suspect, lost sight of him, kept going looking for him,was told not to follow, and got jumped on the way back to his car...on the audio he was running and out of breath...he PUT HIMSELF in danger and escalated the situation to the point that the fight and a killing took place...but you won't admit that all of that is "getting physically involved"...
...had he made the call and not played the super sleuth by following and running after anyone (physically involved to MOST of us), he'd have been safe in his car and nobody would have become upset and jumped him...
..."a good witness" observes and reports...doesn't follow or run after a suspect...any Mama can explain the difference...
As far as your earlier assertion that he was close enough to get punched, that's because (according to him) he was jumped on the way back.
Reporting someone isn't illegal, it isn't wrong, and he has that right. Just because you would do things differently, doesn't mean he was wrong.
BTW, I wouldn't have done it either - earlier I was asked what I would do if I were on the neighborhood watch. Since I'm not, obviously I would not have done things as Zimmerman did. That doesn't make what he did wrong, just different from me.
ScooterSissy wrote:Who says a good witness "doesn't follow"? Is that a SpeeSix special rule.speedsix wrote:..."a good witness" observes and reports...doesn't follow or run after a suspect...any Mama can explain the difference...
BTW, any Mama can also explain the difference between following from a distance while reporting, and "getting physical".
Z didn't break any law by following. M did by getting physical. There's the difference.