Cops and their ego

jazr45acp · Post by **jazr45acp** » Sun Oct 14, 2007 10:53 pm

This is not intented to flare up any issues with most LEOs just the ones who seem to know everything about firearms, but have no basic concept of proper handling of a weapon. I was at my local shooting range today and like always I introduce myself to those I've never seen there and say Hi to my buddies. Well, as usual, there was a lady and her boyfriend there shooting their pistols(glock 40 and SW 40) at about 10yds. They got my attention very quickly because of the weapon handling techinques the woman was using. To make a long story short, she was pointing it all over the place even towards other shooters. This gets me very hot under the collar very quick!

Turns out she is a LEO from a local agency I won't name here. She wouldn't listen to any instructions from me since I was just a local shooter and all. This LEO moved up to 5yds and I kid you not, she shot a 10" group (slow fire) if that with her service pistola. Her BF wasn't any better. When I had a chance I took him aside and showed him proper stance, grip and trigger control. Within minutes he was out shooting her.

He went from a 10"group at 7yds to 2" at 7yds. She got so angery she started to say things like "thats not what I was taught in the academy", "that stance is all wrong," "stand anyway you like so as long as it feels good", "just pull the trigger". She had a chip on her shoulder! I've come across several of these "weapon experts" who don't know the first thing about safety or how to shoot accurately. The ego of some of todays LEO are just not what it ought to be. Again, I'm sure I'll step on a few toes and thats OK, but please leave the ego at the door. Sorry for such a long post.

DaveT · Post by **DaveT** » Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:38 pm

Joel,

Having had a long career in that line of work, I can identify with what you are saying.

There are a couple of factors that usually come into play with those types of attitudes by LEO's. Certainly not all, but most with that kind of attitude are younger and serve on smaller departments and S.O.'s. In direct correlation, most of them have gone through academies like those put on by the their local region "Council of Governments'. After a minimum hour academy that teaches just enough to pass state certification , they are usually put right out on the street and the younger ones often develop a 'Rambo' type attitude. Because of manpower shortages in a lot of smaller departments and smaller S.O.'s, there is often not a lot of direct supervision in the field for newly commissioned officers.

In contrast, Officers who go through a large city or large agency qualification procedure, entrance exams, academies, and time spent with good Field Training Officers before they are turned loose on the general public usually do not display those kinds of attitudes.

Just an observation. Also- thanks for the time you took trying to teach the boyfriend of the female LEO. Just that bit of interest from a fellow shooter might get him to thinking that he needs a lot more training.

Good Job !

zigzag · Post by **zigzag** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:02 am

Most can't hit a broadside of a barn, that was one comment I heard by most who see them shoot. Can't blame them bec not all are gun savvy. Most dont spend time improving their work skills which should be important as they are the law enforcers. Sad to say the truth is truth.

Will938 · Post by **Will938** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:24 am

I like to use snap caps when teaching people to shoot like that. I don't even mention that I'm doing this and it helps a lot to explain why their group sucks. When I explained flinching to one girl she started outshooting me

KD5NRH · Post by **KD5NRH** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:39 am

I've watched one shoot a 12" group slowfire at 25yds with his DPMS AR.

It was overlapping holes in the x-ring at 50yds for the two guys that were trying to prove to him that nothing was wrong with the gun. (after they got the sights set)

Moonpie · Post by **Moonpie** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 3:17 am

One morning at my range, shooting my pocket guns.
A Taurus PT-22 .22, a Seecamp .32, a Colt 1903 .32, and a Beretta .32 Tomcat.
Here comes a car load of LEO's.
They break out all manner of Gligs and Socks.
I watched in amazement as they blasted away at the 15yd targets.
Their shooting was pretty bad.
When they would break I would shoot.
I stood there and made head shots on my target with mouse guns while these guys couldn't hardly shoot dinner platter size groups with full size handguns!

One of them was watching me do this. He actually got snotty with me.
Mouthing off about me not being able to shoot like that "under combat stress"

nitrogen · Post by **nitrogen** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 3:44 am

Wow. Amazing.

There was a time about a year ago, I was shooting, and an officer actually asked me for shooting tips.

...then he asked me what department I was with.

casingpoint · Post by **casingpoint** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:32 am

A timely response on this subject in the Houston Chronicle today:
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5213704.html

Liberty · Post by **Liberty** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:39 am

The topic has been discussed here before and a couple issues cropped up.
1st is that some departments the officers have to buy they own ammo and range time. If a department doesn't encourage their officers to get range time, perhaps its time for them to reconcider.

The other thing that comes to mind is that I don't expect every cop to b as good of a shooter as a dedicated enthusiast. One of the issues we have in our society is that there are a ton of LEO agencies. and they all have overlapping jurisdiction. There are only so many qualified people that are willing to do the job. These jobs will get filled. When the market is tight the hired might not be as qualified as when there are more people.

This isn't just restricted to Police and Sheriff agencys but to the whole workforce. Its pretty tough finding good people. Seems as though everywhere I go these days I hear about how hard it is to find qualified peoples.

frankie_the_yankee · Post by **frankie_the_yankee** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:08 am

FWIW, I taught a NRA Basic Pistol course to a group of LE Explorer Scouts a couple of years ago. I was assisted by the troop leader (a member of the local PD) and one of his friends - a federal air marshall.

During live fire training I noticed that the cop was a pretty good shot, but the air marshall guy was completely lights out. One of the best shooters I have ever seen. And he made it look easy.

RubenZ · Post by **RubenZ** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:04 am

You have to appreciate guns and using guns to be a good shot and practice. I know some people who don't but are still in LE or Military and they aren't that good of a shot.

zigzag · Post by **zigzag** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:08 am

Air Marshals should be really good. That is where they shine in taking down a wouldbe hijacker and terrorist esp in a confined area. If thats the case , why did he get hired?

jazr45acp · Post by **jazr45acp** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:38 am

I know we can't expect all LEOs to be excellent marksmen. It takes a great deal of time and energy to reach that level of excellence. They have families too and some have other jobs to contend with. The extra time they do have is usually spent with their kids I know, I know. However, if my job requires me to keep up to date with the ever changing environmental laws and codes I deal with everyday shouldn't it be made manditory for LEOs to exhibit some sort of proficeny with their weapons on a regular basis? I'm not talking about twice a year and simply going and shooting the target to pass the qualifications? The bar should be raised a bit higher for them than say a person going for a CHL right? Sorry, I'm still venting from yesterday. I just hate to see this. Hope you guys and gals have a wonderful work day. Later.

flintknapper · Post by **flintknapper** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:06 am

jazr45acp wrote:I know we can't expect all LEOs to be excellent marksmen. It takes a great deal of time and energy to reach that level of excellence. They have families too and some have other jobs to contend with. The extra time they do have is usually spent with their kids I know, I know. However, if my job requires me to keep up to date with the ever changing environmental laws and codes I deal with everyday shouldn't it be made manditory for LEOs to exhibit some sort of proficeny with their weapons on a regular basis? I'm not talking about twice a year and simply going and shooting the target to pass the qualifications? The bar should be raised a bit higher for them than say a person going for a CHL right? Sorry, I'm still venting from yesterday. I just hate to see this. Hope you guys and gals have a wonderful work day. Later.

What would be your recommendation?

Would you be willing to pay increased taxes to provide this training, and does it really make sense to train every LEO to Swat like standards when most of them will never fire their weapon in the line of duty?

I certainly want our LEO to have the best training available for their sake and ours, but we must remember: While... reasonable shooting skills are important, it remains the least used skill LEO will ever need.

Qualifications to certain minimum standards are already in place.

Of course, this is no indicator of how successful anyone will be when the dynamics of a "real life" deadly force situation come into play. Cops know this.

Most of the LEO I have shot with do O.K., one notable exception was a rookie University Police woman, but she did not have an "attitude" and was faithful to attend and shoot in our IDPA events.

Eventually...she got better as her nervousness subsided. If I had judged her based on the first time I saw her shoot, I would have done her a dis-service.