New 30.06 sign at work

[grandpatim]

The hospital I work at has posted a new 30.06 sign. Ths one has the correct language and the size of the letters is right. But in the upper left corner it has the ghostbuster sign in red. And in the lower right corner it has the number 51 in red. Is this a legal sign? I have never seen one like this. They also moved it from the outside door to the right of the inner door. So you don't see it until you are in the foyer. Is this legal also? They still haven't put one up at the ER door or ER visitors door either. So can they enforce it if someone walks in those ways?

Thanks,
Tim

[frankie_the_yankee]

Is this legal also? They still haven't put one up at the ER door or ER visitors door either. So can they enforce it if someone walks in those ways?

Thanks,
Tim

They can put up any kind of a sign that they choose.

They can confront anyone, at anytime, and order them to remove themselves and their guns from the premesis. This is true no matter what kind of sign they have including no sign at all.

If you refuse to leave when told, you can be prosecuted. Again, this applies no matter what kind of sign they have including none at all.

About the only thing a proper sign does is that it allows for you to be arrested and prosecuted if you are incidently discovered to be carrying a gun. Let's say you had a heart attack and passed out. While treating you, they discover that you are carrying. They can have you arrested (as soon as you recover) and charged with trespass because the sign gave you proper notice and you disobeyed it.

With an improper sign or no sign, you could not be convicted in the above example.

As to whether the ghostbuster symbol and/or the "51" renders the sign unenforceable, I would think not, as long as the size, contrast, and language requirements are met.

If there are entrances that are not posted, someone who used one of those entrances could use the fact that it was unposted as a defense if charged. The defense would probably be successful.


And of course they can always fire you for bringing a gun inside the premesis regardless of whether they have a correct sign or no sign at all.

[KBCraig]

So long as the sign meets the statutory requirements (like you said these signs do), than anything extra they choose to add doesn't negate it.

If they want to make their sign in 2" block letters, in English, Spanish, French, and Czech, with foot-high letters reading "THIS MEANS YOU!", it's still "sufficient notice" per 30.06.

[Lucky45]

Let's say you had a heart attack and passed out. While treating you, they discover that you are carrying. They can have you arrested (as soon as you recover) and charged with trespass because the sign gave you proper notice and you disobeyed it.

C'mon Frankie,
you actually believe that? I think you chose a bad example to explain. If you are not concious when you arrive to the hospital, then you cannot have intentionally or knowingly committed an offense. We have had numerous hospital workers/EMT tell us online here that at their hospital, they have a protocol for when a patient is brought in and discovered with a gun. They normally turn it over to LEO and the patient can claim it afterwards.

PC §46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE
HOLDER. (b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's person:
(4) on the premises of a hospital licensed under Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, or on the premises of a nursing home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety Code, unless the license holder has written authorization of the hospital or nursing home administration, as appropriate;
(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply if the actor
was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.

[jrosto]

Lucky45;

I think what Frankie was getting at is if you are in a 30.06 posted place of business, and have a heart attack at that business, then you can be charged.

Not if you were transferred to a hospital in an emergency situation.

JR

[frankie_the_yankee]

Let's say you had a heart attack and passed out. While treating you, they discover that you are carrying. They can have you arrested (as soon as you recover) and charged with trespass because the sign gave you proper notice and you disobeyed it.

C'mon Frankie,
you actually believe that? I think you chose a bad example to explain. {/quote]

1) I guess I didn't state it clearly enough. I meant that if someone walked into a properly posted hospital for any old routine reason, and then unexpectedly had a heart attack and passed out (or even if they didn't pass out I suppose), they could be charged with trespass if they were carrying and the gun were found during treatment.

Sure, the hospital might give them a break under the circumstances, or not.

2) I once had a heart attack right on the street, though I did not pass out. This was in RI, where posting is not an issue. But when the rescue guys came they started loosening up my clothing and I had to tell them that I had a valid RI Pistol Permit and was carrying a gun.

So this example is something that comes to mind for me.

There was a moment where they made a radio call to the ER that I didn't like. It kind of sounded like I was a criminal or something. So I told them to make a new call and to properly explain the situation.

They did so and arranged for a cop to meet us at the ER to take custody of my gun while I was temporarily incapacitated. When I got out of the hospital a few days later, I simply went to the station and they gave it back with no hassles.

[stevie_d_64]

I believe it is ridiculous to assume if you are licensed to carry in this state or another, if we have a reciprocal agreement with that state, to assume you are in some kind of "legal" trouble if you are incapacitated while carrying, and taken to (or through) some facility that is off-limits to carrying a firearm, that once you are stabilized and recover you will take that "ride"...

Come on fellas...We are a bit sharper than that...

We have discussed plenty of times these off-nominal encounters with even the most anti-civilian carrying agencies/states out there, but I find it hard to believe even they would bust your chops over a technicality like this...

I believe this is a good thing to discuss though, but not to the extreme where we need to worry too much about whats going to happen after you somehow miraculously recover from some incident...

I also have a high degree of confidence that in these types of events Law Enforcement does handle things adequately and safely enough that it isn't that big a deal...

[GrillKing]

Unless there is a 30.06 sign on the ER entrance ceiling, you are covered!!! (for those on an unplanned ER visit!!)

[grandpatim]

I think if someone who has never been in this hospital before and comes through the unposted ER has not commited a crime. If they are found to be carrying and refuse to leave after notice then they are commiting a crime. My main reason for asking the question about the sign was why is the ghostbusters sign and the 51 sign are added to it. I was wondering if this is a sign that makes it legal for 30.06 postings and 51% posting instead of 2 different signs. I know the ghostbuster sign is not legal anywhere. I was also asking about the legality of where they put the sign up on the inner door of the foyer instead of the outer door. Not the legality of the sign itself. I was asking the question at the 3/4's point of a rather busy 48 hour shift. Sorry, I guess I didn't ask the questions clearly enough.

[Doug.38PR]

I didn't think you could be arrested if discovered. If discovered they could say or a peace officer could say "are you aware of the 30.06 posting" and I would have to either leave or be arrested if I refused. Somebody might very well have missed the sign when they walked in.

[txinvestigator]

I didn't think you could be arrested if discovered. If discovered they could say or a peace officer could say "are you aware of the 30.06 posting" and I would have to either leave or be arrested if I refused. Somebody might very well have missed the sign when they walked in.

What? Are you saying that of you ignore a 30.06 sign and carry in ANYWAY, and a peace officer discovers your gun he cannot arrest you at that instant?

[Doug.38PR]

Sec. 30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED HANDGUN. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:
(1) carries a handgun under the authority of Article 4413(29ee), Revised Statutes, on property of another without effective consent; and
(2) received notice that:
(A) entry on the property by a license holder with a concealed handgun was forbidden; or
(B) remaining on the property with a concealed handgun was forbidden and failed to depart.(b) For purposes of this section, a person receives notice if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication.
(c) In this section:
(1) "Entry" has the meaning assigned by Section 30.05(b).
(2) "License holder" has the meaning assigned by Section 46.035(f).
(3) "Written communication" means:
(A) a card or other document on which is written language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Article 4413(29ee), Revised Statutes (concealed handgun law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun"; or
(B) a sign posted on the property that:
(i) includes the language described by Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;
(ii) appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and
(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.
(d) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.

txinvestigagor, the language emphasized above would seem to give you a legal leg to stand on. But I wasn't really advocating carrying anyway if you do see the 30.06, I was talking about if somebody missed the 30.06 posting (but there is no way to prove that you did see it one way or the other unless it is pointed out to you personally by someone in authority and you fail to comply)

[Lucky45]

I think if someone who has never been in this hospital before and comes through the unposted ER has not commited a crime. If they are found to be carrying and refuse to leave after notice then they are commiting a crime. My main reason for asking the question about the sign was why is the ghostbusters sign and the 51 sign are added to it. I was wondering if this is a sign that makes it legal for 30.06 postings and 51% posting instead of 2 different signs. I know the ghostbuster sign is not legal anywhere. I was also asking about the legality of where they put the sign up on the inner door of the foyer instead of the outer door. Not the legality of the sign itself. I was asking the question at the 3/4's point of a rather busy 48 hour shift. Sorry, I guess I didn't ask the questions clearly enough.

Here is your answer.

GC §411.204. NOTICE REQUIRED ON CERTAIN PREMISES.
(b) A hospital licensed under Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, or a nursing home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety Code, shall prominently display at each entrance to the hospital or nursing home, as appropriate, a sign that complies with the requirements of Subsection (c) other than the requirement that the sign include on its face the number "51".
(c) The sign required under Subsections (a) and (b)must give notice in both English and Spanish that it is unlawful for a person licensed under this subchapter to carry a handgun on the premises. The sign must appear in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height and must include on its face the number "51" printed in solid red at least five inches in height. The sign shall be displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.

So prominently displayed means that it is in a location that you can see AS YOU ENTER.

[Xander]

I didn't think you could be arrested if discovered. If discovered they could say or a peace officer could say "are you aware of the 30.06 posting" and I would have to either leave or be arrested if I refused. Somebody might very well have missed the sign when they walked in.

I believe that is incorrect. This is the very reason that we have such specific requirements for 30.06 signs...So that you have every opportunity to see and recognize it. If you miss it, too bad so sad. You're breaking the law, and you will have to face the consequences if caught, just as you would if you "didn't see" a speed limit sign, or a stop sign while driving.

[Doug.38PR]

see my last post prior to this one (everybody seemed to post ahead of my responding to txinvestigator's response