Senario Question

Nintao · Post by **Nintao** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:52 am

Earlier this month around 7:15pm I was nearly hit by a raging driver while on my motorcycle. I was coming to a stop at a red light (I was in front) on a fairly bisy road just past a highway when someone came over 2 lanes amd nearly hit the back of me to get into the left turn lane (I was in the left lane), he was also speeding and aparently having an arguement with the female passenger. I came to a stop and did not say a word or even make a motion to him, but just casually looked over and the driver began shouting at me (had on a helmet so I had no idea what was said) and 2 seconds later the driver was jumping out of his truck and running around his truck at me. I had enough time to get off the bike and was tackled to the ground and subsequesntly breaking my right clavicle and hurting some ribs. I got up (after he continued the assault while I was on the ground and had to force my way up) and was forced to continue the confrontation, to which sortly after the man got back in the truck and drove off once I began to outmatch him (I did have my helmet on to protect my head and face) and I did hyperextend my right leg as well. I had nowhere to go with all the traffic so fleeing was not viable (car hitting bike = bad). Of course being in a bid city, Dallas, people aroudn me (there were many) honked for me to get out of the way, instead of being nice to get a liscense plate number for me, so with no insurance on seam to be out of luck.

Sadly 2 days from that I was to take my class for my CHL, which I had to cancle. Although I might have been able toshoot well enough to pass :).

I know when I do take my class my questions would be answered, but would like to pick your brains here.

I know on another topic it has been discussed about carrying concealed in your car/vehicle. again any difference as to a motorcycle? I know obviously it is hard to get off the bike to go into a store carrying while not liscensed, but anyone have confirmation as to a motorcycle being considered a vehicle for the purpose of carrying concealed with a CHL?

Secondly, had I had my pistol on me, with the above cercumstances would deadly force been likely warranted? Unwarranted? Warranted at certain parts of the senario, but not others? Such as after I was injured or as he was running at me uninitiated on my part?

Finally, could I use what happened to me that night if a similar senario happens in the future? I did not call the police as that would have been a waste of my time as the person would resemble about 3,000 others in a 1/4mile radius of where it happened and I know the police here unfortunantly would not have done anything anyway. A coworker leaving work as well drove up to the intersection about 1/3 the way through the confrontation and would have been a viable witness (although they might rule him biased being a coworker?).

Again some of these have been discused elsewhere on the forum, but I am new have not yet read through the many posts, or the many legal mumbo jumbos that read like a foreign language dealing with DF and having others decifer for you helps tremendously.

Also would being liscensed to carry or not have had any effect?

Sorry for asking so many questions, but being that my attack was unprevoked and unwarranted I am seriously considering carrying on my motorcycle more and more for mindless attacks by BGs such as this.

For background I have no criminal record and even no moving violations on my record.

I appreciate any input y'all might have.

Thanks Wildscar for getting me into shooting, CHL, etc.

flb_78 · Post by **flb_78** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:25 am

Yes you can carry while on your motorcycle without a CHL. About being able to defend yourself with deadly force, I'm not 100% clear since the subject did not have a weapon. I would have most likely had my gun in my hand when he opened the door and brandished it once he got around his car. I would of then instructed the subject to stop. If he of continued advancing, I would have fired.

While you were down, you should have noticed the make, model, and color of car. Also should have tried to memorize the plate number.

flb_78 · Post by **flb_78** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:27 am

I should also mention that you are allowed to carry when you are with the bike, but the gun must stay with the bike if you walk away.

TX Rancher · Post by **TX Rancher** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:00 am

flb_78 wrote: While you were down, you should have noticed the make, model, and color of car. Also should have tried to memorize the plate number.

I understand what youâ€™re saying flb, but for the me the reality is if I were on the ground and the attack was still going on, looking at the guys vehicle and memorizing the license plate would not be exactly at the top of my listâ€¦getting off the ground would be about the only thing I would be concentrating on.

dihappy · Post by **dihappy** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:11 am

IM glad your wounds will heal, that surely puts a damper on living in a happy world when minding your own business :(

Not sure if deadly force would have been justified, although you never know what someone is going to do when they come at you from out of their car or what they will be holding.

Maybe carry some OC spray also.

Dragonfighter · Post by **Dragonfighter** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:19 am

It comes down to the word "reasonable". If there is substantial doubt that I can prevail and he looks intent on hurting me, I.E. Disparity of force, I am presenting and firing if the attack is pressed.

If I have a decent chance and don't see a threat, I.E. his reaching for a weapon, I'll probably make a stand escalating only after it looks like it's going bad and. I am old and fat now but I still have a decent skill set and am a pretty fair sized fellow. So justifying deadly force against an unarmed assailant would be pretty difficult for me.

The good news is, off the top of my head, something like 95%+ of violent encounters where deadly force is present are mitigated without a shot being fired. IOW the presentation of the weapon is enough to end the fight.

$.02

txinvestigator · Post by **txinvestigator** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:22 am

Broken bones are certainly Serious Bodily Injury, and preventing SBI is a justification for using deadly force.

Nintao, you will get training on use of force laws in your CHL class.

WarHawk-AVG · Post by **WarHawk-AVG** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:18 pm

seamusTX · Post by **seamusTX** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:21 pm

deleted

- Jim

Nintao · Post by **Nintao** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:35 pm

del too then :)

np :)

WarHawk-AVG · Post by **WarHawk-AVG** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:39 pm

Arrggh..I deleted that so I wouldn't sound condescending and a jerk bro

Bike highjacking?

HOGS cant do wheelies...well not like a sports bike

I posted that because I see these zip splats all over Houston doing stupid stuff and it reminded me when I saw some guys doing a wheelie down I-10 for about 1/4 mile and saying to myself "Someone is gonna snatch you off that bike and open a can of whup butt"

I guess my brain/mouth filter is clogged

Just to follow up..for those that missed this very odd post..I gave him a scathing retort, in which I was wrong (pretty much insinuated him a zip splat wheelie riding goon)...me and seamus tried to rectify it, but it got re-posted...

And to answer your question...in that case of being attacked yes, DF would be authorized, only after the guy failed to heed your "STAY BACK" warning

Bad situation bro

Venus Pax · Post by **Venus Pax** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:54 pm

I hope you'll call the police and file a report anyway. Give the best description you can. You never know if some of those people honking at you actually had the decency to call it in with a better description.

Stupid · Post by **Stupid** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:06 pm

Read the book "In the gravest extreme" and you will understand. Not to say Ayoob is always right, but politics and all other political correctness crap play a BIG part.

If you pulled a gun against a barehanded attacker, most likely you would be indicted. If you shot and killed the person, you would be in at least for manslaughter if not more.

What most jury/judge/lawyer don't understand is just how much damage a human hand/finger can do. One jab can easily take out one's eyeball and one blow to the throat can break windpipe.

So what is reasonable?

The long history of American case law has already establish the disparity of the force Correct me if i am wrong because I am no lawyer. The basic rule is hand for hand, stick for stick, guns for guns/multiple attackers/knives if close. It is very hard to convince a jury that a barehanded person would do you seriously bodily harm that you must resort to firearm to prevent.

Wildscar · Post by **Wildscar** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:33 pm

txinvestigator wrote:Broken bones are certainly Serious Bodily Injury, and preventing SBI is a justification for using deadly force.

Nintao, you will get training on use of force laws in your CHL class.

Will agree with TXI. I saw the X-rays and the after effects of this encounter. As you can see in the pic below and judge for your selfs. Nintao can correct me if I'm wrong but I think this pic was take about a week later.

Molon_labe wrote: Just to follow up..for those that missed this very odd post..I gave him a scathing retort, in which I was wrong (pretty much insinuated him a zip splat wheelie riding goon)...me and seamus tried to rectify it, but it got re-posted...

Good thing I missed that one. I might of had to get another don't do that PM from a mod.

Nintao might ride a Harley but I ride a sport bike. We are not all crazy

dihappy · Post by **dihappy** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:14 am