WW2 artifact with no serial number - legal?

[frankie_the_yankee]

A friend of mine is about to take possession of a Luger 9mm that his father "liberated" from a factory during the late stages of WW2. The gun is in better than 95% condition.

The "problem" is that the gun has no markings on it whatsoever. No manufacturer's logo and no serial number. His father has had the gun ever since he took it from the factory. He brought it home with him when the war ended, and has had it ever since.

Is it legal to possess this gun? Could my friend get in trouble because it doesn't have a serial number?

Note that both my friend and his father live in TX so there is no out of state transfer angle to worry about.

[hoss4570]

I doubt they could "get in trouble", since the gun is a war relic but I don't know.

[seamusTX]

I know of no law that makes such weapons illegal at the state or federal level. They may be considered curios and relics: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/index.htm

Serial numbers were not required until 1968.

- Jim

[SC1903A3]

Serial numbers on guns did not become law until GCA68 (Gun Control Act of 1968) was passed. I have a couple of shotguns (J.C. Higgins) and 22 rifles that were made prior to 1968 that don't have serial numbers.

[Xander]

Yes, as I understand the law, if there has never been a serial number on the gun, it is legal to possess.

Edit...In other words, I agree with the others.

[Fosforos]

There are many weapons from the WW2 era that have no markings, or have the original markings and serial numbers struck over with new ones, or filed off. This is the case with many Russian Mosin Nagants that the Finns captured, and seems to be case with many German rifles captured by Russians.

Congratulations to your friend for getting to own this piece of history, and with a great story of how he came about it too.

[Texbow]

It would be great if you could get a photo and post it.

[mr surveyor]

It would be great if you could get a photo and post it.

DITTO

[frankie_the_yankee]

Just an update. The gun turned out to not be a Luger as my friend originally thought. Instead, it is something quite a bit rarer, that I had never heard of before - a Sauer 38H.

It's a DA/SA gun that superficially resembles a Walther PP type except with an internal hammer. It is in 32ACP caliber. It has no external markings of any kind, and appears to be in excellent condition. "Almost never fired" is how I would put it.

This gun has many unique features including a first-of-its-kind Glock-like trigger safety and a "decock/recock" lever that not only works like a conventional style decocker but can also be used to recock the gun if it is desired to take the first shot in SA mode. It also has a slide mounted safety, which means that it is an early model. (Guns made near the end of the war lack this feature.)

This gun was introduced in 1938, and made throughout the war. Handguns magazine has a cool article about the gun at the below link.

http://www.handgunsmag.com/featured_han ... index.html

This particular gun was said to have been taken along with several others in some kind of raid on the Sauer factory in Suhl, Germany in 1943-44 (not sure of the exact date). This one was the only one of the group of captured guns to not have markings.

I will post a couple of photos later today.

My friend (actually, he is my boss's boss and also a friend) will be sending the details in to one of the "Gun Room" type columns in G&A or Handguns magazine to get any possible additional info and a ballpark estimate of its value, which I think is going to be substantial. He tells me that he has a few boxes of German ammo to go with it that were also taken in the raid.

He is also going to try and get some details of the raid (date, units involved, etc.) from his dad and any surviving records. He tells me that his dad wasn't on the raid itself, but that one of the guys who was (a close friend) gave it to him after the war.

Anyway, like I said, pics tonight.

[Kalrog]

Wow. That sounds like quite the piece of history there. Keep us updated.

[seamusTX]

You might want to find out what the provenance documentation for a firearm is supposed to look like,then get some for this weapon.

I have seen old firearms with their provenance sell for several times the market value of similar pieces that had no provenance.

- Jim

[frankie_the_yankee]

You might want to find out what the provenance documentation for a firearm is supposed to look like,then get some for this weapon.

I have seen old firearms with their provenance sell for several times the market value of similar pieces that had no provenance.

- Jim

Pardon my ignorance, but what's a "provenance"?

[lawrnk]

I am also unfamiliar with the term. I found this on Arms Collectors


“Provenance� seems to be something of a term of art. You find it in $40 a pop four color high end auction house catalogs, and esoteric dealer ads. It seems to mean the “pedigree� of a guns past ownership, and tends to be a document that states something like “This gun was originally owned by Mr. W who gave it to Mrs. X who sold it to Mr. Y who sold it to me, Mr. Z.� A gun with superior provenance with separate documents confirming each past owner, each meeting all the A criteria above can easily become an “A� gun.

However, often a study of a gun’s provenance will reveal gaps in the documentation. For example, in the hypothetical provenance in the paragraph above, “W to X to Y to Z�, the credibility of the gun is tied inextricably not only to the credibility of Mr. Z, but also the credibility and accuracy of W, X & Y.

Remember that several factors other than malfeasance can figure into the misrepresentation of a gun. Guns may be inadvertently switched. There may be errors in the recording of serial numbers or other identifying characteristics. Plus there is always room for error in intergenerational tale telling. Granddad tells seven year old Sonny how Jesse James personally gave him the old owl’s head revolver in the night stand. All the adults in the room recognize it for one of Granddad's beloved tall tales. Sixty years later, Sonny is certainly willing to draft an affidavit as to what his granddad told him.

When supporting documentation comes up short in the areas of timeliness or certainty of documentation, it is especially important to look at the credibility of the source of the information. In spite of the Grandpa & Sonny illustration above, I tend to give most credence to notarized statements from the descendants of the original owner.

I also believe that the better dealers of antique and historic arms realize that their continued success in the business rests only on their long term reputation for veracity and fairness. A written statement from such an individual outlining the purported history of a piece can go a long way to establishing B status in my mind. The contents of any such statement must be carefully evaluated, and a conscientious dealer will make clear exactly what is known about the gun and the source of that information.

There was a recent Country & Western song, “That’s my story and I’m stickin’ to it�. A gun can acquire something like B status in the same manner. If a particular gun establishes a particular claim and sticks to it long enough, it comes to be accepted as factual. This usually occurs through the magic of publication. If a gun is pictured in a book or magazine and represented to be a particular historic artifact, it comes to be accepted as such. The effect is magnified by repeated publication or passage of years, much in the way that it is said that old buildings and old whores establish respectability.

I must confess, I have a hard time fighting my knee jerk reaction to accept whatever appears in print. However, I try to take an extra hard look at a “B� by publication� gun to see if it might fall into the D or F categories.

[frankie_the_yankee]

I doubt if any such documentation is available for this gun. Whatever "transfer of ownership" took place was when the gun was captured in the raid. At this point, the raiders are more or less presumed to all have passed away by now.

The guy who gave it to my friend's dad passed away some time ago. My friend's dad is one of those lucky types that is still going strong into his late 80's.

My friend is going to field strip the gun soon. We are thinking that some of the internal parts might be marked in some way. At that point it's up to Garry james, Fjestad, or someone like that.

And it's only academic anyway. My friend would never sell it for any realistic amount of money. Maybe if Bloomberg offered to dive into the poorhouse to own it he might sell, but that's not gonna happen.

[seamusTX]

I doubt if any such documentation is available for this gun. Whatever "transfer of ownership" took place was when the gun was captured in the raid. At this point, the raiders are more or less presumed to all have passed away by now.

The guy who gave it to my friend's dad passed away some time ago. My friend's dad is one of those lucky types that is still going strong into his late 80's.

Someone who knows how this game is played can prepare a provenance document now. Your friend's dad who obtained the weapon in Germany can attest to its origin.

Your friend might never sell the piece, but his grandchildren who never knew the WWII vet might not give it the same sentimental value. OTOH, with the provenance, they might appreciate it more, or they could donate it to a museum for a big tax deduction.

Just something to think about.

I've seen a couple of these documents. They look like a diploma from a fancy college, with a bunch of signatures and seals, printed on paper with scrollwork or gold leaf in the margins.

- Jim