Suspected Of Shoplifting While Carrying?

[carlson1]

I read on another forum a story of a man(CHL) in a store who was stopped by a security guard. He had not stolen anything, but he seen the buldge of the man's weapon. After questioning, the CHL told him he was carrying. Police called etc. . .Long story short nothing happen and that store appologized the Police told him Merry Christmas. Several Questions for the experts. In Texas sometimes you are stopped at Wal Mart (is it legal) to look in your bags and your receipt. Same at Sam's Wholesale. This has happened to me in two stores in the Irving Mall (check bags and recipt-again maybe Mr. Charles knows if this practice is legal - forgot Search and Seizure from Penal Code Class years ago). If you are approached by Security of being a suspected shop lifter because of a buldge would you say why? Would you call for a manager? Would you go to Security office and identify? Call LEO? What?

[Charles L. Cotton]

I have to leave for church soon, but I'll post something on this when I get back. I saw this in PDO too and it looked like a situatiuon that was poorly handled from the store security guard's part.

Chas.

[HighVelocity]

I have a plan in case something like this happens to me...

Security Gaurd/Loss prevention: "Sir, do you have something in your pants that you forgot to pay for?"

Me: No, and I'm not happy to see you either.

[txinvestigator]

An employee of a sotre who has reasonable grounds to suppose someone is trying to steal merchandise is allowed to stop the person for a reasonable time to investigate the ownership of the property.

From the Texas Code of Criminal Procedure;


Text
Art. 18.16. Preventing consequences of theft.

Any person has a right to prevent the consequences of theft by
seizing any personal property that has been stolen and bringing it,
with the person suspected of committing the theft, if that person can
be taken, before a magistrate for examination, or delivering the
property and the person suspected of committing the theft to a peace
officer for that purpose. To justify a seizure under this article,
there must be reasonable ground to believe the property is stolen, and
the seizure must be openly made and the proceedings had without delay.

And from the Texas Civil Practices Act;


Text
§124.001. Detention.

A person who reasonably believes that another has stolen or is
attempting to steal property is privileged to detain that person in a
reasonable manner and for a reasonable time to investigate ownership
of the property.

It IS reasonable if the theft alarms activate for the employee to check your receipt against your bag.

However, places like Fryes Electronics, Walmart, etc, who check every person can do so IF the persons stop and LET them. If you keep walking they do not have legal authority to stop you. Once you pay for that property it is YOURS. You do not have to show someone at the door your receipt unless they have reasonable grounds based on the above 2 statutes.

Thats why my wife hates shopping at Fryes with me. I refuse to stop.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Here is a shorthand version of the post on PDO. The poster has a CHL (not sure which State) and a store security person apparently saw a bulge under his shirt. He stopped the CHL and questioned him about the bulge. As I recall, the CHL told him it was a gun and that he had a license. The security person then said he would have to disarm him and of course the CHL refused. I believe other attempts were made to disarm him threats, but no physical action. The police were called, the store manager and police took the CHL’s side. The responding officer even chastised the security person for trying to disarm the CHL. The CHL got an attorney and the store quickly settled the case and fired the security person.

We’ve already had a thread on store owners’ rights and liabilities when trying to prevent shoplifting in response to the Wal-Mart incident, so I’m not going into that again. I want to focus on the CHL/gun/disarm issue.

While we should never let a non-LEO disarm us under these circumstances, this is not a clear cut situation. If there is reason to believe someone has stolen something, a store owner can “reasonably� detain you to investigate. Under Texas law, we cannot even disclose that we have a handgun (Legislative intent - not “letter-of-the-law� stuff here) to a non-LEO. So if our pistol prints and security personnel see the bulge and reasonably suspect us of shoplifting, they have a right to stop us. (Seeing the bulge alone is not enough.) To make absolutely sure we don’t violate Penal Code §46.035(a), we’d probably have to wait until a LEO arrived and show him/her your CHL and the gun. I’m not going to wait that long! If I’m faced with this situation, I’d let the security person check the contents of my bag against the receipt, then I’d try to leave. If that didn’t satisfy the security person, and it probably won’t if he/she stopped you because of the bulge, then I tell him to get the store manager and I’d wait. I’d then show the store manager my CHL, but I wouldn’t tell him I had a gun, even if he asked. I would simply state that Texas law doesn’t allow me to discuss that issue with anyone who is not a LEO. Then I would leave.

Remember, the store owners’ suspicion must be “reasonable.� That is, it must be based upon objective facts and the mere existence of a bulge doesn’t get you there. The bulge could be a cell phone, pager, Blackberry, knife, or yes, even a handgun. “He didn’t have that bulge when he came in, but now he does� would probably work, but “I just noticed a bulge� in all likelihood won’t. (There was nothing in the PDO post to indicate any reason for the suspicion, other than the security person seeing a bulge as the man walked out of the store.)

So, let’s make every reasonable effort not to let our guns print, but if something like this happens, don’t let bravado transform the store’s problem into yours. (Apparently, the PDO poster said something rather provocative to the security guard.)

Regards,
Chas.

[dws1117]

Charles do you happen to have a link to the PDO thread?

[John]

Charles do you happen to have a link to the PDO thread?

Here's the original:

http://www.packing.org/community/genera ... hread=5489

But there were several followup threads concerning the ultimate outcome. You can click the original poster's name and look for the followup threads.

[dws1117]

Thanks for the link, John.

[carlson1]

We’ve already had a thread on store owners’ rights and liabilities when trying to prevent shoplifting in response to the Wal-Mart incident, so I’m not going into that again

Can someone point me to this thread?

[dws1117]

http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... ht=walmart

Here you go Carlson1.

[carlson1]

Thank you for the link.

[gigag04]

He wanted to escort me back to the loss prevention office. I refused. He informed me that I didn't surrender my weapon, he would have to take it from me. I made a statement that I would use it on him before that would happen. He took that statement as a threat, I meant it as a fact.

This was fairly silly comment to make. While an argument for assualt and bettery could be made, I think it would be a strawman.

An interesting situation, I for sure wouldn't tell them what it was. I had some friends at lunch today ask me if I was carrying and I told them what I always do "I don't answer that question" :)

Good post,

-nick

[stevie_d_64]

I told the originator of that (PDO) discussion that that statement was a bit over the top...

Even though, if he had had to physically defended himself against that security guard disarming him, I think he'd have been absolutely in the right to repulse that illegal attack...

The responding Law Enforcement, and store manager I believe acted accordingly, and the situation was resolved...

The original poster did explain as many details and interactiosn after the incident as he could so that everyone could understand his position and the need for absolute closer on the incident...Some PDO'ers gave him a hard time for the continuing updates and comments, to which I certainly did not appreciate, because I think it did need a lot of input and discussion...But that was just me...

As I say a lot...Put yourself in that situation, and account for the laws in this state, and figure out what is actually the appropriate verbal and physical action you should take if this had happened to you...

[txinvestigator]

Under Texas law, we cannot even disclose that we have a handgun (Legislative intent - not “letter-of-the-law� stuff here) to a non-LEO.

Umm, what? Where is that law? I must have missed it.



§46.035. Unlawful carrying of handgun by license holder.

(a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder
carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person under the
authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and
intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.

Conceal means to place out of sight


Texas Government Code
§411.171. Definitions.

In this subchapter:



(3) "Concealed handgun" means a handgun, the presence of
which is not openly discernible to the ordinary observation of a
reasonable person.

If we could not even TELL someone else we are carrying surely the law would state so.

[gigag04]

I think Chas was bringing in the inent behind the law, and not the specific wording.

Legislative intent is an argument that can be made in court right??? (unsure)


At least that's what I can deduct - I could be way off.

-nick