Figuring out if/when CHL is needed for "sporting activi

[PatrickS]

Hi,

I've been studying the TX laws and various summaries and commentaries for several weeks and am still unclear on whether I would need a CHL permit for certain "sporting activities" or whether the exemptions apply.

I'm hoping some folks here might be able to provide some clarity for several key points/terms.

Apologies for the length/number of questions...

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The Texas law states:

[One may possess a handgun, illegal knife, or club when] "engaging in lawful hunting, fishing, or other sporting activity on the immediate premises where the activity is conducted, or is enroute between the premises and the actor's residence, if the weapon is a type commonly used in the activity"

I have several questions about the meaning/interpretation of this law, specifically as it relates to handguns:

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Questions regarding the term "commonly used in the activity":

Does "protection" fall under the classification of "commonly used in the activity" or must the handgun be expected to be used always and for a significant part of that activity? (rather than perhaps never used at all, and only if needed, e.g. for protection, etc.)

Could a handgun be considered "commonly used in the activity" of fishing? E.g. a small revolver loaded with shotshells possessed for the purpose of protection from snakes? (which seems to be a fairly "common" practice). Would it cover any caliber handgun regardless of the nature of ammunition? E.g. a 9mm with hollow point bullets?

(I'm presuming "fishing" is mentioned specifically in relation to the use of "illegal knives", since filleting knives would be commonly used in the activity of fishing yet in most cases be classified as illegal -- I'm just wondering if/how handguns might be considered "commonly used" when fishing)

Is hiking/backpacking a "sporting activity" where a handgun would be considered "commonly used in the actitity"? Again, for protection against snakes, wild/rabid dogs, etc.?

Would four-wheeling in the backcountry be considered a "sporting activity" for which possession of a weapon would be considered lawful; again e.g. for protection from wild animals?

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Questions more specifically regarding the term "commonly used":

How common is common? I.e. used by a majority of persons who practice that activity? Used by a significant number, but not necessarily a majority, of persons? Used occasionally? Not unheard of?

To what extent does this qualification limit innovation in the sport or the self-imposed additional challenge of e.g. hunting with a weapon that is not necessarily "commonly used" (so long as it is within the law regarding humane hunting practices, etc.)?

Depending on what constitutes "commonly used", couldn't one argue that hunting deer with a handgun is "uncommon", since most deer hunters do not use a handgun, and therefore, possession of a handgun while deer hunting is therefore illegal?

Does "commonality" apply only to the class/type of weapon or specifically to the caliber and type of ammunition? I.e. if it is "common" to use a handgun for some form of hunting, is it then legal to use any handgun for that form of hunting, even if the caliber and ammunition type is not what is commonly used? E.g. would hunting wild hogs with a 22LR handgun (for the challenge, of course be considered illegal since that particular caliber of handgun is not "commonly used" even if larger caliber handguns are commonly used to hunt wild hogs?

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Questions regarding the term "enroute":

[these questions are asked with the presumption that I am NOT "travelling"]

Does "enroute" allow for any kind of stopover or diversion?

If I am on my way to the "premises" of the "sporting activity" and stop to pick up a buddy on the way there, is that still "enroute"? What if I pick up 2 buddies, 4, 10, all from different locations?

If my buddy actually lives 10 miles in the opposite direction such that I am first driving further from the "premises" of the "sporting activity" before driving towards those "premises", is that still "enroute"?

If I go inside my buddy's place for 20 minutes while I wait for him to get his stuff together, dress, whatever, is that still "enroute"?

If I stop to have some lunch along the way, or stop at a store to buy ammo, or stop to have the oil changed in my car, or similar diversions which all could be seen as relating in some manner to the particular outing on that day (as opposed to e.g. stopping to get in some xmas shopping or visit the gym), is that still "enroute"?

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Questions regarding the term "residence":

Is a hotel room where I am temporarily staying my "residence"?

If I'm camping and have set up camp in the same location for several days, is my tent my "residence"?

If I'm visiting relatives for a month, is my relatives' home my "residence"?. If I drive from my relatives' home to the shooting range, am I considered "enroute between the premises [of the sporting activity] and [my] residence"?

Is a house boat a "residence"? (the law speaks specifically of RVs, but a house boat is, I presume, not considered an RV)

If a house boat is in fact considered a "residence", how might the law apply to a house boat being towed on a trailer? Would it then be treated similarly to an RV that is being towed?

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Cheers,

Patrick

patrick.stickler@gmail.com

[Charles L. Cotton]

Patrick:

Welcome to TexasCHLforum. You must be a law professor!! These look like law school exam questions. I'll try to answer as many as I can, but I'll tell you the same thing I sometimes have to tell my clients - there will be very few absolute answers.

I will also say that you should get a CHL, if you are eligible. It is the easiest way to avoid problems when carrying. That said, here’s my stab at answering some of your questions.

Does "protection" fall under the classification of "commonly used in the activity" or must the handgun be expected to be used always and for a significant part of that activity? (rather than perhaps never used at all, and only if needed, e.g. for protection, etc.)

I know of no case law requiring the handgun be actually used in the sporting activity. It is quite common for hunters to carry pistols even when they are hunting with rifles. Some carry them for protection from snakes (not sure why the rifle wouldn't work, but . . .), some carry them to finish off a wounded deer. I know fishermen who carry pistols in their tackel boxes to shoot snakes or unruly sharks they foolishly hauled into the boat. So, there is no clear-cut answer for you, but this is my opinion.

Is hiking/backpacking a "sporting activity" where a handgun would be considered "commonly used in the activity"? Again, for protection against snakes, wild/rabid dogs, etc.?

I don't think so. I know this seems very similar to carrying a handgun for protection while hunting or fishing, but we don't have a long history of carrying a handgun while hiking or backpacking.

Would four-wheeling in the backcountry be considered a "sporting activity" for which possession of a weapon would be considered lawful; again e.g. for protection from wild animals?

Same answer as above.

How common is common? I.e. used by a majority of persons who practice that activity? Used by a significant number, but not necessarily a majority, of persons? Used occasionally? Not unheard of?

This will vary by the identity of the 12 people on your jury. (This isn't a flippant comment; it's painfully accurate!)

Does "enroute" allow for any kind of stopover or diversion?

If I am on my way to the "premises" of the "sporting activity" and stop to pick up a buddy on the way there, is that still "enroute"? What if I pick up 2 buddies, 4, 10, all from different locations?

If my buddy actually lives 10 miles in the opposite direction such that I am first driving further from the "premises" of the "sporting activity" before driving towards those "premises", is that still "enroute"?

Necessary stops, such as stops for gas or to go to the restroom are fine. Every step you take away from "necessity" is another step toward a courtroom.

If I go inside my buddy's place for 20 minutes while I wait for him to get his stuff together, dress, whatever, is that still "enroute"?

If I stop to have some lunch along the way, or stop at a store to buy ammo, or stop to have the oil changed in my car, or similar diversions which all could be seen as relating in some manner to the particular outing on that day (as opposed to e.g. stopping to get in some xmas shopping or visit the gym), is that still "enroute"?

I think you're toast on these, especially lunch, shopping and oil changes.

Is a hotel room where I am temporarily staying my "residence"?

Yes, but the hotel can have a "no-guns" policy that effects you. All of your questions indicate you don't have a CHL, and I'm answering accordingly.

If I'm camping and have set up camp in the same location for several days, is my tent my "residence"?

No, probably not. It's not your premises. Recall, the exception is not your "residence," it's your "premises" and you don't control the camp site. (You don't own the hotel room either, but a renter assumes some of the property owners rights.)

If I'm visiting relatives for a month, is my relatives' home my "residence"?. If I drive from my relatives' home to the shooting range, am I considered "enroute between the premises [of the sporting activity] and [my] residence"?

"Residence" isn't the test. It isn't your premises, but it could be argued it's a premises under your control, if your relatives authorize you to "control" the premises, whatever that means.

Regards,
Chas.

[PatrickS]

Thanks for the comments. No, I'm not a law professor nor have I ever studied law. I'm just someone trying to make sense of the law.

It seems that the only way I will be able to avoid worrying about the subtle interpretations is to get a CHL permit.

Thanks!

Patrick

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[dws1117]

It seems that the only way I will be able to avoid worrying about the subtle interpretations is to get a CHL permit.

Welcome to the forum. That was one heck of a first post.

There is no way I could dream of topping what Charles posted, so I won't even try. I will say that yes it is much easier with a CHL. I can't imagine trying to the tangled two step one must dance trying to figure whats right, black, blue, top or bottom of trying to carry without one and still not break any laws.

[ElGato]

CHL is the way to go, I give thank's that I have lived long enough to be legal, I wish my dad and brother could have.

Tomcat

[jbirds1210]

Tomcat,
I have a feeling that if CHL would have been legal in your brother's time, he would have lived with a Mark I .22 in his lunchbox!! That man was an unbelievable sporting shot with that gun. Sorry to stray off topic...Elgato's post just gave me a blast from the past.

Jason