legality of black powder weapons

[LedJedi]

Howdy :) i have a question that i'm sure a dozen or so folks on here could answer for me.

I was recently told that black powder weapons are not considered "firearms" somehow and that even folks who are felons could own them. I'm wonder what level of truth there is to this as I have a good buddy I'm considering buying a black powder pistol for his birthday, but he's got a felony from a LONG time ago.

[Xander]

Yup, that's correct. For the federal definition of a "firearm" and why black powder guns aren't, see USC Title 18 § 921.

[Kalrog]

Howdy :) i have a question that i'm sure a dozen or so folks on here could answer for me.

I was recently told that black powder weapons are not considered "firearms" somehow and that even folks who are felons could own them. I'm wonder what level of truth there is to this as I have a good buddy I'm considering buying a black powder pistol for his birthday, but he's got a felony from a LONG time ago.

It isn't ALL black powder guns. It has to do specifically with the age and replication type status of the gun, but I will refrain from posting specifics about which I am ignorant.

[seamusTX]

You have to be careful of the distinction between firearms, handguns, and weapons in Texas law.

Black powder weapons are firearms and weapons in Texas law.

If you read the definitions of PC 46.01, it appears that cap-and-ball revolvers are not legally handguns, and you can carry them without a CHL.

I wouldn't try it, though.

- Jim
Edited to correct typo.

[KBCraig]

Federal law doesn't apply to "antique firearms", defined in 27 CFR 478.11 as:

Antique firearm. (a) Any firearm (in-
cluding any firearm with a matchlock,
flintlock, percussion cap, or similar
type of ignition system) manufactured
in or before 1898; and (b) any replica of
any firearm described in paragraph (a)
of this definition if such replica (1) is
not designed or redesigned for using
rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed
ammunition, or (2) uses rimfire or con-
ventional centerfire fixed ammunition
which is no longer manufactured in the
United States and which is not readily
available in the ordinary channels of
commercial trade.

One of the quirks of GCA'68 is that a Mauser or Lee-Enfield made on 12/31/1898 is not a firearm, but identical rifles made on 1/1/1899 are. These "not guns" are functionally identical to those made up to 80 years later (Enfields) or even still today (Mausers). You can buy and sell antiques across state lines with no license, and can even send them through the mail, or by common carrier without notification. But, that's modern smokeless centerfire, and you were asking about black powder.

Black powder firearms aren't "firearms" as far as federal law is concerned. The evidence is right there at Wal Mart: you can take a BP rifle right off the shelf and carry it to the front checkout, pay cash, and walk out with no 4473 or ID check. You can order cap & ball revolvers right out of Sportsman's Guide or other catalogs, and have them delivered straight to your door. You can't do either of those things with a "firearm".

[seamusTX]

Wait a minute. I didn't read the first message carefully earlier.

A felon can buy certain black powder weapons without a form 4473 or NICS, but it is generally illegal for a felon to possess any firearm in Texas:

§ 46.04. UNLAWFUL POSSESSION OF FIREARM. (a) A person who has been convicted of a felony commits an offense if he possesses a firearm:
(1) after conviction and before the fifth anniversary of the person's release from confinement following conviction of the felony or the person's release from supervision under community
supervision, parole, or mandatory supervision, whichever date is later; or
(2) after the period described by Subdivision (1), at any location other than the premises at which the person lives.

In other words, he can have one at home after five years have passed since he finished his sentence, but he can't take it anywhere else.

- Jim

[LedJedi]

which is why i asked if these were legally considered firearms.

[Xander]

Wait a minute. I didn't read the first message carefully earlier.

A felon can buy certain black powder weapons without a form 4473 or NICS, but it is generally illegal for a felon to possess any firearm in Texas:

§ 46.04. UNLAWFUL POSSESSION OF FIREARM. (a) A person who has been convicted of a felony commits an offense if he possesses a firearm:
(1) after conviction and before the fifth anniversary of the person's release from confinement following conviction of the felony or the person's release from supervision under community
supervision, parole, or mandatory supervision, whichever date is later; or
(2) after the period described by Subdivision (1), at any location other than the premises at which the person lives.

In other words, he can have one at home after five years have passed since he finished his sentence, but he can't take it anywhere else.

- Jim

But §46.01 specifically excludes antiques or replicas that don't use center fire or rim fire cartridges from the definition of the term "firearm."

[seamusTX]

But §46.01 specifically excludes antiques or replicas that don't use center fire or rim fire cartridges from the definition of the term "firearm."

(3) "Firearm" means any device designed, made, or adapted to expel a projectile through a barrel by using the energy generated by an explosion or burning substance or any device
readily convertible to that use. Firearm does not include a firearm that may have, as an integral part, a folding knife blade or other characteristics of weapons made illegal by this chapter and that is:
(A) an antique or curio firearm manufactured before 1899; or
(B) a replica of an antique or curio firearm manufactured before 1899, but only if the replica does not use rim fire or center fire ammunition.

What does the underlined text mean?

I seriously don't know.

- Jim

[WildBill]

Firearm does not include a firearm that may have, as an integral part, a folding knife blade or other characteristics of weapons made illegal by this chapter and that is:
(A) an antique or curio firearm manufactured before 1899; or
(B) a replica of an antique or curio firearm manufactured before 1899, but only if the replica does not use rim fire or center fire ammunition.

What does the underlined text mean?
I seriously don't know.
- Jim[/quote]

One of these http://www.swblades.com/derringerknife.html
I remember seeing one of these in a museum.

[jimlongley]

Federal law doesn't apply to "antique firearms", defined in 27 CFR 478.11 as:
. . .
(2) uses rimfire or con-
ventional centerfire fixed ammunition
which is no longer manufactured in the
United States and which is not readily
available in the ordinary channels of
commercial trade. [/b]

One of the quirks of GCA'68 is that a Mauser or Lee-Enfield made on 12/31/1898 is not a firearm, but identical rifles made on 1/1/1899 are. These "not guns" are functionally identical to those made up to 80 years later (Enfields) or even still today (Mausers). You can buy and sell antiques across state lines with no license, and can even send them through the mail, or by common carrier without notification. But, that's modern smokeless centerfire, and you were asking about black powder.

Black powder firearms aren't "firearms" as far as federal law is concerned. The evidence is right there at Wal Mart: you can take a BP rifle right off the shelf and carry it to the front checkout, pay cash, and walk out with no 4473 or ID check. You can order cap & ball revolvers right out of Sportsman's Guide or other catalogs, and have them delivered straight to your door. You can't do either of those things with a "firearm".

Only if those Mausers and Lee-Enfields use
rimfire or con-
ventional centerfire fixed ammunition
which is no longer manufactured in the
United States and which is not readily
available in the ordinary channels of
commercial trade.

I have seen many that use modern ammo.

It's kind of like the Mauser Pistol that was given to my great-grandfather on his retirement from the Cavalry in 1898 - according to serial number and the engraving on it, it had to be made before 1/1/1899, but it uses 7.63 Mauser ammo, not common by any means, but still available.

[Mike1951]

Jim, it does not have to meet both requirements.

There is an 'OR' in there that you're missing.

If it meets the age requirement OR if it meets the ammunition requirement.

[srothstein]

So, the answer to your question is that if it is a real antique black powder (not using cartridge ammo) or a replica black powder rifle or pistol, it is not a firearm under federal or state law and anyone can own one and carry it. This does not apply to all black powder firearms, such as the Knight in-line black powder rifles. Since these are not replicas, they are firearms.

And, yes, a felon could legally walk around with a brand new black powder cap and ball revolver.

But, Jim Dark of the TSRA was stopped and harassed by officers when he was carrying a black powder rifle because the officers either did not understand the law (probable) or did not like the idea of people carrying guns (possible).

[KBCraig]

Jim, it does not have to meet both requirements.

There is an 'OR' in there that you're missing.

If it meets the age requirement OR if it meets the ammunition requirement.

Exactly.

Antique firearm.
(a) Any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898;

and (b) any replica of any firearm described in paragraph (a) of this definition if such replica
(1) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed
ammunition, or
(2) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

The ammo restriction applies to replicas; otherwise, every Peacemaker would be a non-firearm.

Jim, your grandfather's C96 Mauser pistol is an antique. As far as BATF is concerned, it is not a firearm.

[Mike1951]

But my point was that a firearm manufactured prior to 1898 still qualifies even if ammunition is currently available.