51% sign

[rl168]

This is the first time I saw a 51% sign

is it in compliance thus no conceal carry?

[Keith B]

This is the first time I saw a 51% sign

is it in compliance thus no conceal carry?

If it is posted at a true 51% facility (place that derives more than 51% or their income from the sale of alcohol for consumption on premise) then yes it is legal and no carry.

What business is it where this is posted?

[agbullet2k1]

maybe a slight technicality, but doesn't it also have to be in spanish?

[Keith B]

maybe a slight technicality, but doesn't it also have to be in spanish?

Doesn't state so in the code that I can find.

[rl168]

Saw it at a mexican restaurant called "On the Border". It is on the NW part of Houston, 290 and Barker-Cypress I think.

[Keith B]

I doubt that 'On the Border' sells more alcohol than food, but you can request an open records check through the TABC and they can tell you if they are licensed 51%. If they aren't then they need to remove the sign.

[seamusTX]

maybe a slight technicality, but doesn't it also have to be in spanish?

Sí.

GC §411.204. NOTICE REQUIRED ON CERTAIN PREMISES.
(c) The sign required under Subsections (a) and (b) must give notice in both English and Spanish that it is unlawful for a person licensed under this subchapter to carry a handgun on the premises. The sign must appear in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height and must include on its face the number "51" printed in solid red at least five inches in height. The sign shall be displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.

- Jim

[agbullet2k1]

If Buffalo Wild Wings and Chili's aren't 51%, I seriously doubt On the Border is.

[camjr]

Similar question -- There's a local place I frequent that is a typical bar, but that also serves pub-grub and has pool tables, darts, etc. I'm nearly positive that the majority of their business comes from on-premesis consumption of alcohol, but there is no 51% sign that I have found on numerous searches -- only the typical "licensed and unlicensed blah blah blah" signs. No 30.06 sign either. If it's obvious that it should be a 51% establishment but isn't posted, can I carry there? In other words, is it my responsibility or the business' responsibility? Is it something that TABC determines and tells the establishment about the sign requirement? I'm not sure how all that works behind the scenes.

Thanks in advance for your responses.

[Keith B]

maybe a slight technicality, but doesn't it also have to be in spanish?

Sí.

GC §411.204. NOTICE REQUIRED ON CERTAIN PREMISES.
(c) The sign required under Subsections (a) and (b) must give notice in both English and Spanish that it is unlawful for a person licensed under this subchapter to carry a handgun on the premises. The sign must appear in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height and must include on its face the number "51" printed in solid red at least five inches in height. The sign shall be displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.

- Jim

I stand corrected. Thanks Jim!

[srothstein]

Similar question -- There's a local place I frequent that is a typical bar, but that also serves pub-grub and has pool tables, darts, etc. I'm nearly positive that the majority of their business comes from on-premesis consumption of alcohol, but there is no 51% sign that I have found on numerous searches -- only the typical "licensed and unlicensed blah blah blah" signs. No 30.06 sign either.

This is not as easy as it seems. As one example, consider how much they charge for the rent of the pool tables. It might easily be enough to put them over the limit for the 51%. They also probably get some money in from leagues and events and that is all supposed to be figured in too.

If it's obvious that it should be a 51% establishment but isn't posted, can I carry there? In other words, is it my responsibility or the business' responsibility? Is it something that TABC determines and tells the establishment about the sign requirement? I'm not sure how all that works behind the scenes.

Thanks in advance for your responses.

The important thing to remember is that the sign is actually irrelevant to you. The law forbids you carrying from someplace that gets 51% or more from the sale of alcoholic beverages for on-premise consumption, AS DETERMINED BY TABC. That last is in caps, because it truly is the important part of the law for you. Note that this means that what the signs says is irrelevant to prosecuting you and what the business actually does get from drinks is also irrelevant.

So, here is how the procedure works. When someone applies for a license or permit, they fill in a form for TABC. You can get copies of the application from our web site if you care to see what is involved. One section of the application asks the person how much of their gross sales will be from food, how much from alcoholic beverages, and how much from other. TABC adds up the other and food parts. If the total is greater than the drink part, we say they are not 51%. If the total is smaller, then they are 51%.

The law says the permit or license must be posted where it can be seen by the public. You can see what we determined by checking the permit. If it has a line on it that says "SIGN=RED" then TABC has determined that they are 51% and you can be prosecuted for carrying there. If they have a line that says "SIGN=BLUE" then they are not 51% according to TABC and you can carry there with a CHL.

Now, to be honest, most places are not going to let you see their license without arguing. Do not argue because it is not worth it and you will end up more upset and sometimes worse off than when you started (like a criminal trespass notice). If you think they are posted improperly (either signs they should not have or no sign they should have), you can call your local TABC office and file a complaint. The agent it gets assigned to will have 60 days from when you file the complaint to finish checking it out. And he must visit the lcoation twice, once within 30 days. The agent can file an administrative case against the license if the proper signs are not posted. Most of the time, the agent will just give the owner the correct signs, but they have been known to make cases on them.

[camjr]

Similar question -- There's a local place I frequent that is a typical bar, but that also serves pub-grub and has pool tables, darts, etc. I'm nearly positive that the majority of their business comes from on-premesis consumption of alcohol, but there is no 51% sign that I have found on numerous searches -- only the typical "licensed and unlicensed blah blah blah" signs. No 30.06 sign either.

This is not as easy as it seems. As one example, consider how much they charge for the rent of the pool tables. It might easily be enough to put them over the limit for the 51%. They also probably get some money in from leagues and events and that is all supposed to be figured in too.

If it's obvious that it should be a 51% establishment but isn't posted, can I carry there? In other words, is it my responsibility or the business' responsibility? Is it something that TABC determines and tells the establishment about the sign requirement? I'm not sure how all that works behind the scenes.

Thanks in advance for your responses.

The important thing to remember is that the sign is actually irrelevant to you. The law forbids you carrying from someplace that gets 51% or more from the sale of alcoholic beverages for on-premise consumption, AS DETERMINED BY TABC. That last is in caps, because it truly is the important part of the law for you. Note that this means that what the signs says is irrelevant to prosecuting you and what the business actually does get from drinks is also irrelevant.

So, here is how the procedure works. When someone applies for a license or permit, they fill in a form for TABC. You can get copies of the application from our web site if you care to see what is involved. One section of the application asks the person how much of their gross sales will be from food, how much from alcoholic beverages, and how much from other. TABC adds up the other and food parts. If the total is greater than the drink part, we say they are not 51%. If the total is smaller, then they are 51%.

The law says the permit or license must be posted where it can be seen by the public. You can see what we determined by checking the permit. If it has a line on it that says "SIGN=RED" then TABC has determined that they are 51% and you can be prosecuted for carrying there. If they have a line that says "SIGN=BLUE" then they are not 51% according to TABC and you can carry there with a CHL.

Now, to be honest, most places are not going to let you see their license without arguing. Do not argue because it is not worth it and you will end up more upset and sometimes worse off than when you started (like a criminal trespass notice). If you think they are posted improperly (either signs they should not have or no sign they should have), you can call your local TABC office and file a complaint. The agent it gets assigned to will have 60 days from when you file the complaint to finish checking it out. And he must visit the lcoation twice, once within 30 days. The agent can file an administrative case against the license if the proper signs are not posted. Most of the time, the agent will just give the owner the correct signs, but they have been known to make cases on them.

I LOVE this forum. Thanks for the very detailed description of the process. I've seen their license, but will look to see if indicates they should have a red or blue sign. This helps a lot.

cheers!

[NcongruNt]

Similar question -- There's a local place I frequent that is a typical bar, but that also serves pub-grub and has pool tables, darts, etc. I'm nearly positive that the majority of their business comes from on-premesis consumption of alcohol, but there is no 51% sign that I have found on numerous searches -- only the typical "licensed and unlicensed blah blah blah" signs. No 30.06 sign either.

This is not as easy as it seems. As one example, consider how much they charge for the rent of the pool tables. It might easily be enough to put them over the limit for the 51%. They also probably get some money in from leagues and events and that is all supposed to be figured in too.

If it's obvious that it should be a 51% establishment but isn't posted, can I carry there? In other words, is it my responsibility or the business' responsibility? Is it something that TABC determines and tells the establishment about the sign requirement? I'm not sure how all that works behind the scenes.

Thanks in advance for your responses.

The important thing to remember is that the sign is actually irrelevant to you. The law forbids you carrying from someplace that gets 51% or more from the sale of alcoholic beverages for on-premise consumption, AS DETERMINED BY TABC. That last is in caps, because it truly is the important part of the law for you. Note that this means that what the signs says is irrelevant to prosecuting you and what the business actually does get from drinks is also irrelevant.

So, here is how the procedure works. When someone applies for a license or permit, they fill in a form for TABC. You can get copies of the application from our web site if you care to see what is involved. One section of the application asks the person how much of their gross sales will be from food, how much from alcoholic beverages, and how much from other. TABC adds up the other and food parts. If the total is greater than the drink part, we say they are not 51%. If the total is smaller, then they are 51%.

The law says the permit or license must be posted where it can be seen by the public. You can see what we determined by checking the permit. If it has a line on it that says "SIGN=RED" then TABC has determined that they are 51% and you can be prosecuted for carrying there. If they have a line that says "SIGN=BLUE" then they are not 51% according to TABC and you can carry there with a CHL.

Now, to be honest, most places are not going to let you see their license without arguing. Do not argue because it is not worth it and you will end up more upset and sometimes worse off than when you started (like a criminal trespass notice). If you think they are posted improperly (either signs they should not have or no sign they should have), you can call your local TABC office and file a complaint. The agent it gets assigned to will have 60 days from when you file the complaint to finish checking it out. And he must visit the lcoation twice, once within 30 days. The agent can file an administrative case against the license if the proper signs are not posted. Most of the time, the agent will just give the owner the correct signs, but they have been known to make cases on them.

Steve,

Thanks for your clarifying words for all of us. My question is this:

Since a lot of places don't have a license immediately available, when I call TABC to inquire about the license, will I be able to get a determination from the TABC agent I speak to whether they're 51% or not? Last time we really spoke about this, I did not get any definitive answer from the Sargeant I spoke with regarding La Zona Rosa here in Austin. Back then, I was asking whether they were 51% or not, and he did not seem to understand that he could answer my inquiry. I've now got more places that I'm uncertain about, and would certainly like to get clarification on them. Now that I've become more familiar with the terminology, I might take another crack at it. If I ask if the license is marked "sign=blue" or "sign=red", will the TABC agent on the phone be able to look that up? Sorry for bothering you with another inquiry... I'm really trying to make it so I don't have to anymore.

Thanks again!

[mdek]

Since a lot of places don't have a license immediately available, when I call TABC to inquire about the license, will I be able to get a determination from the TABC agent I speak to whether they're 51% or not? Last time we really spoke about this, I did not get any definitive answer from the Sargeant I spoke with regarding La Zona Rosa here in Austin. Back then, I was asking whether they were 51% or not, and he did not seem to understand that he could answer my inquiry. I've now got more places that I'm uncertain about, and would certainly like to get clarification on them. Now that I've become more familiar with the terminology, I might take another crack at it. If I ask if the license is marked "sign=blue" or "sign=red", will the TABC agent on the phone be able to look that up? Sorry for bothering you with another inquiry... I'm really trying to make it so I don't have to anymore.
Thanks again!

Several months ago, I contacted the TABC via email and asked if they had a database of sign=red and sign=blue establishments. The best they were able to do was to give me an excel sheet of all licensed establishments, but sorted to separate all those that had "bar" in the name. This wasn't too useful for my purposes, since it's the gray-area locations, without "bar" in the name, that we typically wonder about. Considering the extra effort they seemed to go through to get me that list, I'm suspecting that the 51% records may not be in an easily-accessible electronic format, and that they might be only able to get the info on a case-by-case basis. This might be something someone could work on, to try to get better records.

[MBGuy]

Twice I've checked the permit and didn't have any trouble getting to it. Once at the Flying Saucer in downtown Houston, which I already knew it was going to be sign=red, I just wanted to see it. It was way at the back and I asked a waitress to see it. She seemed confused that I wanted to see it, but she cooperated and took me back to where all the permits were.

The second one was Buffalo Wild Wings on Gray in midtown Houston. It's right at the door.....sign=blue, probably since they get most of their business at noon from downtown customers.

It's too bad the 51% sign isn't required instead of having to hunt down the permits, for those rare occasions when you're just not sure.