Use of Force Scenario - updated w/ Part III

[ELB]

Here's a local incident that led me to consider one of those "what would I do?" questions. It was of interest to me, perhaps others would care to comment. This is a two or three parter, gets more interesting as it goes along.

Part I

An "older male" (as described in the police report) pulled out into an intersection into the path of a motorcyclist, who was followed by one of his friends in a car. The motorcyclist hit the older male's car, demolishing the bike and multiply injuring (but not killing) the motorcyclist. An off-duty but uniformed police officer, working security at a nearby movie theater, heard the noise, saw parts of the motorcycle flying, and ran to the scene.

Now here's where it gets interesting:

The motorcyclist's friend in the following car calls someone on a cell phone. According to the officer's report, "friend" is very angry and demands "Where is the guy who hit him?" (Note that the friend used expletives in this and other statements). Officer then hears a voice behind him, "I am right here." Older male tries to explain that he didn't see the motorcycle, a guardrail obstructed his view.

"Friend" uses another unkind phrase and says "You pulled out in front of him," and then advances on the older male. The officer steps into the "friend's" path to protect the older male, the "friend" shoves the officer, and the officer shoves back. The officer repeatedly shouts at the "friend" to back off, pushes him back several times, a scuffle ensues.

The officer pulls his TASER out, orders the friend to "back off, PLEASE." Friend shouts at officer, "Are you going to TASE me? He hit [the motorcyclist]." Officer tells "friend" to back off again. Another police department employee comes on scene and also shouts at "friend" to back off. Finally he does, and goes to check on the motorcyclist.

QUESTION: If you were the older male in this scenario (btw, it wasn't me), what would you, with all your self-defense knowledge and skills, be doing as "friend" is trying to advance on you and scuffles with the officer? Help the officer? Runaway? Unholster? Pull out your pepper spray, if you have it?

I am curious what you all think. Also, especially any LEOs reading, what you think about the police officer's actions.

[KD5NRH]

QUESTION: If you were the older male in this scenario (btw, it wasn't me), what would you, with all your self-defense knowledge and skills, be doing as "friend" is trying to advance on you and scuffles with the officer? Help the officer? Runaway? Unholster? Pull out your pepper spray, if you have it?

Back away, and get back in the car if possible. If he gets past the cop, or the cop goes down, then I'll do my best to make sure things get really ugly, but until that point, the cop is ready to effectively defend himself and myself, so I'll let him earn a bit of my tax money.

[Crossfire]

Sounds like Mr. Officer had the situation under control, and with backup enroute.

I would get out of his way and let him do his job.

[Wildscar]

If you try to help the police do their job then they are going to have to concetrate on two people rather than just one. As for the "Friend" he should kept his mouth shut and be helping his friend. I know I would not want him as a friend. But as the above posters statethe officers have it under control and if they happen to go down then there is going to be bigger issues to deal with and I will make sure to STOP the "Friend" before he gets to me.

I would also like to add that I too am a Motorcyclist and I have seen similer situations. The best thing the "friend" could have done in that situation was to get all of info on from the other guy since his friend was going to be out of it and not thinkin right. I have had to do that before. Specially when the guy tried to leave the sceane one time but thats a story for another time.

[The Annoyed Man]

Sounds like Mr. Officer had the situation under control, and with backup enroute.

I would get out of his way and let him do his job.

Bingo.

[DParker]

Yeah, given the information in the OP this one seems like a no-brainer. The cop had the situation well in hand. No reason to interfere unless things go south. Furthermore, "friend" seemed far more interested in spraying testosterone around the scene than in demonstrating any real concern for the welfare of his buddy. That's precisely the brand of "friend" I've taught (successfully, I hope) my son to avoid like the plague.

[frankie_the_yankee]

I'd back away unless the friend managed to ambush the cops and put them out of commission. Then, if he is coming after me, I'm almost certainly going to draw. At that point, it's the friend's move. If he is beating on the cops while they are down and/or manages to snatch a weapon, he is most likely gonna get shot.

Is this a real incident? If so, I am surprised there is no mention of anyone calling for paramedics. I would think the biker would need them.

And I agree with others who observed that what the friend should be doing is talking to me to get my information to facilitate getting the whole thing sorted out later.

[barres]

I'm not a cop and there's one between me and the "friend." That situation sounds more or less under control. Keep an eye on it from a distance if possible, but leave it the heck alone.

I would not retreat back to my car, myself. I would see what, if any, aid I could give to the down cyclist.

[G.C.Montgomery]

Sounds like Mr. Officer had the situation under control, and with backup enroute.

I would get out of his way and let him do his job.

+1

[dukesean]

Wow I am surprised that the "friend" would push a uniformed police officer, that is definitely not the right thing to do. But to reiterate what those before me said, if LE was there you back away and let them handle the situation.

[tboesche]

As long as the LEO is "functioning" I will stay holstered and be as observant as I can be. If, God forbid, the friend somehow manages to incapacitate the cop, either by knocking him out or worse, and he then focus' on me, well at that point it is obvious to me that he intends to do "serious bodily harm" and he will be stopped by whatever force I have available to me.

[ELB]

I would agree with keeping my "older male" body out of the way -- preferably in the car, or at least on the other side of it. I would be ready to do something else if the officer, for whatever reason, is put out of the picture.

BTW Frankie, yes this is a real incident. I will provide some links later, but they are going dead because the newpaper that has them only keeps things on line for 30 days.

But read on, this gets even more interesting:

Part II:

While "Friend" is checking on the motorcyclist, the officer goes to the "older male," tells him to get back into his car for his own safety and calls for back up. (note -- it is not clear from the info I have that "older male" actually got into his car, but I am assuming so. I would have!)

"Friend" now comes back and goes for "older male". The officer gets in between again. "Friend" pushes the officer aside and charges the "older male," reaching the car door and...


OK now what would you be doing? How would you react?

[dukesean]

Interesting twist. If he is going for me, after pushing a uniformed police officer out of the way, I am assuming he means me bodily harm. Once I got into the car I would have locked the door. At this point being in the car behind a locked door, I would have already pulled out my gun but kept it out of view, that way if "friend" gets really stupid you will be able to quickly defend yourself. If "friend" just keeps trying to open the door, but without trying to break the window or anything, I would just be ready to show the business end. Any more agressive than that and I think you are justified in showing your firearm.

[tboesche]

If I am in the car as the cop instructed me to be, the windows would be mostly up and the doors locked. I agree with having the gun "handy", My car is already wrecked so the guy can beat on it all he wants. If however, I have not yet made it to the car then

[srothstein]

In the first scenario, as an officer, i would expect the older male to do what everyone suggested, just back up and let me control the friend. I have done this before at many accident scenes and this is a realistic situation.

And, before I got to your update, I was going to add I would have done just what the officer did, tell the older man to go sit in his car until I get more help there.

Now, after the update, I think the older male would have nothing to worry about. I can understand him getting his gun ready, but he really has a great seat for what is going to be the kind of show that makes youtube money. Friend is going to be tased, cuffed, and booked for interfering with a police officer in the line of his duties and aggravated assault on a police officer, because I am going to say he injured me when he shoved me (bodily injury is me feeling pain at all). Friend has had all the warnings and instructions he is going to get and is all out of chances.

As for tasing him in the back, they don't pay me to fight fair, they do pay me to win.